Concept power units from 2030

[ispano6]

Extreme H

F1-level speed with water as fuel — Racing switches to hydrogen for the first time ever


https://www.coachesdatabase.com/f1-leve ... n-as-fuel/

[mzso]

Extreme H

F1-level speed with water as fuel — Racing switches to hydrogen for the first time ever


https://www.coachesdatabase.com/f1-leve ... n-as-fuel/

(The title couldn't be more nonsensical even if that was their goal. )

It's seriously thin in information. It's not even clear whether it's H fueled ICE powered. Or a fuel cell series.

Anyway, since you posted in F1 engine concepts, I suppose you mean to argue for H2 for F1. But it will remain an unviable choice for similar reasons to batteries. Giant hydrogen cylinders holding a few kg of it don't really fit together with F1 car design. And not just because of weight, but because 350-700 atmosphere tanks are used.

I can easier imagine a BEV F1 concept with going to more energy dense experimental chemistries rather than road tech, and quick swap systems, with pit stops every 10-15 laps. (And then more laps as the tech would get better)

[ispano6]

Extreme H

F1-level speed with water as fuel — Racing switches to hydrogen for the first time ever


https://www.coachesdatabase.com/f1-leve ... n-as-fuel/

(The title couldn't be more nonsensical even if that was their goal. )

It's seriously thin in information. It's not even clear whether it's H fueled ICE powered. Or a fuel cell series.

Anyway, since you posted in F1 engine concepts, I suppose you mean to argue for H2 for F1. But it will remain an unviable choice for similar reasons to batteries. Giant hydrogen cylinders holding a few kg of it don't really fit together with F1 car design. And not just because of weight, but because 350-700 atmosphere tanks are used.

I can easier imagine a BEV F1 concept with going to more energy dense experimental chemistries rather than road tech, and quick swap systems, with pit stops every 10-15 laps. (And then more laps as the tech would get better)

Some more information, but still rather scant. In this case the hydrogen fuel cell is strictly electric propulsion. The combusion of hydrogen isn't practical yet, but someday in the future there likely will be solutions that are currently hurdles to it's adoption. It will be interesting to see how the racing series produces or acquires it's hydrogen.
https://www.fiaextremeh.com/
https://www.symbio.one/en/hydrogen-solu ... technology

Symbio hydrogen fuel cell technology focuses on Proton Exchange Membrane Fuel Cells (PEMFC) to power vehicles, offering a zero-emission alternative to internal combustion engines. Their technology combines the ease of use of traditional engines (range, durability, quick refueling) with the benefits of electric vehicles (zero emissions). Symbio is a global leader in this field, with a strong presence in North America, Europe, and Asia, and is backed by Michelin, Forvia, and Stellantis

With some Gemini questioning, found some information that a 2kg@700bar tank of hydrogen could weigh anywhere around 38-46kg which uses "a polymer liner reinforced with carbon fiber composites". That's not terribly heavy and it'd be interesting to see what different form-factors teams design.

I feel I can understand the FIA's motivations to pursue such a series as Extreme H- the ICE combustion Formula is just starting to feel old. Biofuels may be a good renewal for ICE, but not as big a leap in technology considering the lower energy density of biofuels.

[gruntguru]

Extreme H

F1-level speed with water as fuel — Racing switches to hydrogen for the first time ever


https://www.coachesdatabase.com/f1-leve ... n-as-fuel/

(The title couldn't be more nonsensical even if that was their goal. )

It's seriously thin in information. It's not even clear whether it's H fueled ICE powered. Or a fuel cell series.

Anyway, since you posted in F1 engine concepts, I suppose you mean to argue for H2 for F1. But it will remain an unviable choice for similar reasons to batteries. Giant hydrogen cylinders holding a few kg of it don't really fit together with F1 car design. And not just because of weight, but because 350-700 atmosphere tanks are used.

I can easier imagine a BEV F1 concept with going to more energy dense experimental chemistries rather than road tech, and quick swap systems, with pit stops every 10-15 laps. (And then more laps as the tech would get better)

Some more information, but still rather scant. In this case the hydrogen fuel cell is strictly electric propulsion. The combusion of hydrogen isn't practical yet, . . . .

I might be misunderstanding this statement but combustion of hydrogen is easy and already proven in piston and gas turbine engines.

[ispano6]

(The title couldn't be more nonsensical even if that was their goal. )

It's seriously thin in information. It's not even clear whether it's H fueled ICE powered. Or a fuel cell series.

Anyway, since you posted in F1 engine concepts, I suppose you mean to argue for H2 for F1. But it will remain an unviable choice for similar reasons to batteries. Giant hydrogen cylinders holding a few kg of it don't really fit together with F1 car design. And not just because of weight, but because 350-700 atmosphere tanks are used.

I can easier imagine a BEV F1 concept with going to more energy dense experimental chemistries rather than road tech, and quick swap systems, with pit stops every 10-15 laps. (And then more laps as the tech would get better)

Some more information, but still rather scant. In this case the hydrogen fuel cell is strictly electric propulsion. The combusion of hydrogen isn't practical yet, . . . .

I might be misunderstanding this statement but combustion of hydrogen is easy and already proven in piston and gas turbine engines.

Yes, not in terms of technology, but the practicality of it as a fuel. What practical or sustainable way would produce the hydrogen that would be used across the series etc. Would it be Aramco producing it and shipping it world-wide to the circuits/tracks that would use them or would they use locally sourced hydrogen fuel from the regions hosting the races. I suppose it would be similar to how current race fuel is provided and may vary per team as well.

Extreme H can usher in some novel applications that can be studied and applied to the mainstream if viable.

[Tommy Cookers]

well the people who were converting a UK oil port into a site for renewable ammonia import have abandoned it .....
because UK Govt policy has now turned against the visible kind of energy import but ...

the Govt trumpet is still blowing hard about UK hydrogen (and CCS and storage and distant floating wind farms and etc) ....
presumably to charm the unions and to chase votes in the regions

2 large offshore wind farm contracts have been abandoned but large onshore solar farms are appearing ....
mostly in the North of England despite its lack of solar fuel (none in the winter) and grid capacity

[mzso]

With some Gemini questioning, found some information that a 2kg@700bar tank of hydrogen could weigh anywhere around 38-46kg which uses "a polymer liner reinforced with carbon fiber composites". That's not terribly heavy and it'd be interesting to see what different form-factors teams design.

And also 50 liters of internal volume. Seems kind of hefty to me. Compared to 5.5kg/7.5l for petrol, which can be stored in a light and tiny tank.
Not sure what do you mean about form-factors. An hydrogen tank is a cylinder or a sphere. I would expect everyone would will go for getting as close to a sphere that fits in the car, to save material.
(Is it even realistic for them to design their own tanks?)

I might be misunderstanding this statement but combustion of hydrogen is easy and already proven in piston and gas turbine engines.

Maybe he meant production instead of combustion. Seems to fit more with the context.

[ispano6]

With some Gemini questioning, found some information that a 2kg@700bar tank of hydrogen could weigh anywhere around 38-46kg which uses "a polymer liner reinforced with carbon fiber composites". That's not terribly heavy and it'd be interesting to see what different form-factors teams design.

And also 50 liters of internal volume. Seems kind of hefty to me. Compared to 5.5kg/7.5l for petrol, which can be stored in a light and tiny tank.
Not sure what do you mean about form-factors. An hydrogen tank is a cylinder or a sphere. I would expect everyone would will go for getting as close to a sphere that fits in the car, to save material.
(Is it even realistic for them to design their own tanks?)

I might be misunderstanding this statement but combustion of hydrogen is easy and already proven in piston and gas turbine engines.

Maybe he meant production instead of combustion. Seems to fit more with the context.

Form factors as in distribution, count, arrangement, shape. No doubt that it is one of the largest design elements to have to consider even if there are advancements in hydrogen storage such as solid phase storage etc. Whatever the formula is, there is always going to be somewhere there is compromise - whether it is in efficiency, cost, or pollution. Again, this is more something that Extreme H would put to the test and provide real-world application and use-cases for feasibility. I'm one who thinks we will be entering the hydrogen age much sooner than later.

[mzso]

I'm one who thinks we will be entering the hydrogen age much sooner than later.

I wonder what makes you think that?
I think there won't be a hydrogen age unless someone invents Mr. Fusion, and we'll use deuterium/tritium.

[Holm86]

I'm one who thinks we will be entering the hydrogen age much sooner than later.

I wonder what makes you think that?
I think there won't be a hydrogen age unless someone invents Mr. Fusion, and we'll use deuterium/tritium.

Neither do I, hydrogen is not what it's hyped up to be.
Storing hydrogen is extremely difficult, there's a reason it hasn't caught on

[DenBommer]

Reminds me of how, what you might call “free redline” rules led to ever higher engine speeds in F1.
Piston speed is easier to calculate than piston inertia and in some cases easier to explain. Being 50 years before computers and digital calculators, perhaps that’s why the metric became a common frame of reference.

the rules now (fueling by rpm for all rpm) amount to fueling-by-piston speed (because the stroke is fixed by rule)

if stroke was free the same fueling-by-piston-speed might allow higher rpm via reduced stroke (and capacity) ....

even a more 'range extender' type of ICE
(assuming the designers can extend their combustion trickery to higher rpm)


btw 1
on YT Dominic Chinea is having trouble converting his Liberty (45 deg) V12 into a V8 - many think he should L6 or V6 it
as a V8 it won't vibrate worse than (successful) 90 deg 300 hp Wright-Hispano V8s (& better with some counterweight)
a 45 deg V twin is bad for primary imbalance - but these will cancel in a 45 deg V8
(a 90 deg V8 with flat crank is the worst for secondary imbalance)
and yes the Liberty V8 would be torsionally bad with an airscrew - but not so in a car
reforging the original unweighted V12 crankshaft into a 'flat' V8 counterweighted one should be interesting
https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/44720513.pdf
for 80 years medium-speed 45 deg V8s diesels were made for railway locomotives eg EMD 2 strokes & ALCO 4 strokes
ALCO used flat counterweighted cranks (the 2 strokes had counterweighted camshafts)

btw 2

1.6-liter V4, combined with axial flux motor(s) and a solid-state battery.

Nostalgia and innovation combined with this technology. I’m afraid all I can do is dream and hope.

[mzso]

1.6-liter V4, combined with axial flux motor(s) and a solid-state battery.

Nostalgia and innovation combined with this technology. I’m afraid all I can do is dream and hope.

More likely for F1, than V10.
Why V4 though? I4 worked fine for BMW.

Why would you restrict electric motors to axial flux only?

[gruntguru]

1.6-liter V4, combined with axial flux motor(s) and a solid-state battery.

Nostalgia and innovation combined with this technology. I’m afraid all I can do is dream and hope.

More likely for F1, than V10.
Why V4 though? I4 worked fine for BMW.

Why would you restrict electric motors to axial flux only?

Why V4 over I4? - Packaging.
Restrict motors to axial flux only? - Did he say that?

[mzso]

Restrict motors to axial flux only? - Did he say that?

He specifically said axual flux motors and solid state batteries.

Why V4 over I4? - Packaging.

Okay so what's the advantage? I4 is small and slim, V4 is small and short.

[DenBommer]

1.6-liter V4, combined with axial flux motor(s) and a solid-state battery.

Nostalgia and innovation combined with this technology. I’m afraid all I can do is dream and hope.

More likely for F1, than V10.
Why V4 though? I4 worked fine for BMW.

Why would you restrict electric motors to axial flux only?

I wouldn’t limit it to axial flux motors only, but I would like it if they developed them for F1 applications.