Was Brawn allowed to remove Mclaren fuel rig?

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Richard
Richard
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Re: Was Brawn allowed to remove Mclaren fuel rig?

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andartop wrote: The problem with this would not be where was the fuel hose removed but rather by whom. I thought F1 was a team sport, with drivers and teams fighting each other out for the two distinct world titles. If one team's mechanics are free to work on another team's car that would/should/could be considered external assistance.

You seem to miss the point about safety.
Last edited by Richard on 21 Oct 2009, 15:02, edited 1 time in total.

komninosm
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Re: Was Brawn allowed to remove Mclaren fuel rig?

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andartop wrote:So, I imagine all the people here who agree there was no foul play would hold the same opinion had the same thing happened with Felipe and the Torro Rosso mechanics in a Championship deciding race and he then went on to win the race and the title..

And I guess it would be alright then as well for Alonso at Hungary to have had his front wheel secured by, say, RBR mechanics and then go on and win that race.

Would it also be ok in your opinion, in the name of safety, for a driver to have a full pitstop at another team's garage to avoid waiting behind his team mate if they both had to come in at the same time? Waiting in line could be dangerous after all as the engine could overheat and cause a fire with all those fumes around.. :lol:

PS. @Komninosm: you're more than welcome to post your arguments and your opinion in regards to the topic of this thread, but if you keep insulting and swearing the mods will be after you soon..
1) Sure, no problem.I don't think like you.
2) Alonso too, though he didn't really stop did he?


So how about you comment on the fine discrepancy? 10k for Ferrari, 50k for McLaren. Or the fact that Massa was unsafely released right next to another car while Heikki was released well in front of Rai?

PS: I don't think I used any swear words. Feel free to point out specific examples. Hence put up or shut up.
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on 21 Oct 2009, 16:19, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Personal comments

tpe
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Re: Was Brawn allowed to remove Mclaren fuel rig?

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10K for Ferrari, 50K for McLaren.
When there is already one incident, the next one is absolutely normal to be much higher. The team that had the problem is irrelevant.

komninosm
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Re: Was Brawn allowed to remove Mclaren fuel rig?

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tpe wrote:10K for Ferrari, 50K for McLaren.
When there is already one incident, the next one is absolutely normal to be much higher. The team that had the problem is irrelevant.
Can you quote the rule/regulation for this?

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void
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Re: Was Brawn allowed to remove Mclaren fuel rig?

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I thought that McLaren fine is higher, because Kov pit exit was more dangerous to others then Massa's one in Singapure.

Richard
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Re: Was Brawn allowed to remove Mclaren fuel rig?

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Guys, there is a subtle difference in the two events that might account for the difference in fine. Perhaps you didn't notice it. Something to do with pouring burning fuel over a competitor.

James
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Re: Was Brawn allowed to remove Mclaren fuel rig?

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andartop wrote:So, I imagine all the people here who agree there was no foul play would hold the same opinion had the same thing happened with Felipe and the Torro Rosso mechanics in a Championship deciding race and he then went on to win the race and the title..

And I guess it would be alright then as well for Alonso at Hungary to have had his front wheel secured by, say, RBR mechanics and then go on and win that race.

Would it also be ok in your opinion, in the name of safety, for a driver to have a full pitstop at another team's garage to avoid waiting behind his team mate if they both had to come in at the same time? Waiting in line could be dangerous after all as the engine could overheat and cause a fire with all those fumes around.. :lol:

PS. @Komninosm: you're more than welcome to post your arguments and your opinion in regards to the topic of this thread, but if you keep insulting and swearing the mods will be after you soon..


I do agree. I'm really glad the brawn guys removed the hose from kovi's car and it was great to watch. But it isn't a simple subject at all. would they have done the same if it was a red bull? we can't know either way but this makes it very unfair.

James
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Re: Was Brawn allowed to remove Mclaren fuel rig?

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richard_leeds wrote:Guys, there is a subtle difference in the two events that might account for the difference in fine. Perhaps you didn't notice it. Something to do with pouring burning fuel over a competitor.
hahahah oh yeah! oh heard something about that :lol:

tinhouse
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Re: Was Brawn allowed to remove Mclaren fuel rig?

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komninosm wrote: Do you remember when Schumacher was helped by marshals inside the track because of "safety concerns" (yeah right) not long ago?
It happened twice, I believe. Once at the 04 European GP and the next year in Austria. But I have some vague memory that he really tried it on later and tried to manouevre an obviously beaching car onto the apex to try and get the marshalls to help him back on. Did I imagine that one?

Either way up, I think that the regulation was removed after that. I think Alonso ended up in the same position in 06 and the marshalls refused to help as they were no longer able to. I can't find anything in the current regs that allows a driver to be assisted to rejoin the race from a dangerous position. Happy to be proved wrong though.

Personally I'd go with the other people here who have said it was a very sporting gesture on the part of the Brawn Mechanics and it wouldn't make sense to penalise either party. Although the Brawn guy frantically waving him on seemed very keen to get him out of their box. Watching it live and based on that I was expecting a Brawn to appear for a pit stop, so that the Brawn mechanics had only helped Heikki because he was obstructing their guy. Despite my cynicism at the time though it does seem that they genuinely did just help him out of sportsmanship.

I guess with hindsight waving man was probably trying to make sure he got Heikki's attention to tell him he was clear to go (or maybe he just didn't fancy having to spend the rest of the day digging bits of McLaren shrapnel out of their garage if the car had gone bang and wanted him to get the hell out of range ...)

Matt.

komninosm
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Re: Was Brawn allowed to remove Mclaren fuel rig?

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void wrote:I thought that McLaren fine is higher, because Kov pit exit was more dangerous to others then Massa's one in Singapure.
How?

komninosm
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Re: Was Brawn allowed to remove Mclaren fuel rig?

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richard_leeds wrote:Guys, there is a subtle difference in the two events that might account for the difference in fine. Perhaps you didn't notice it. Something to do with pouring burning fuel over a competitor.
Yeah, Massa nearly crashed into one so he missed with the fuel flung...

komninosm
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Re: Was Brawn allowed to remove Mclaren fuel rig?

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James wrote:I do agree. I'm really glad the brawn guys removed the hose from kovi's car and it was great to watch. But it isn't a simple subject at all. would they have done the same if it was a red bull? we can't know either way but this makes it very unfair.
They probably would, but it doesn't matter anyway. The point is was it illegal? The obvious answer is:
No.

Look if you want to make an argument about Heikki make a good one. I'll show you how:
Heikki stopped too early and was obstructing other cars and the Brawn mechanics (and their pit-stop area). He should have stopped a bit further ahead and more to the side. (I'm not sure though were the pit exit line is cause he had to stop before that)
See? I'm not biased, like some of you guys...

Look, tinhouse makes good points too.
Last edited by komninosm on 21 Oct 2009, 20:30, edited 1 time in total.

CHT
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Re: Was Brawn allowed to remove Mclaren fuel rig?

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Here is a recap of what happened if you didnt catch the details.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF_C8sxbwfg

Will Brawn guys do the same if it was Vettel?

James
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Re: Was Brawn allowed to remove Mclaren fuel rig?

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CHT wrote:Here is a recap of what happened if you didnt catch the details.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF_C8sxbwfg

Will Brawn guys do the same if it was Vettel?
Thanks, there should be more of this stuff on youtube or even the f1 site, I cant see a reason for taking it down but not making it available elsewhere.

It would be a very brave brawn mechanic that did the same to Vettel :D

komninosm
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Re: Was Brawn allowed to remove Mclaren fuel rig?

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James wrote:
CHT wrote:Here is a recap of what happened if you didnt catch the details.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF_C8sxbwfg

Will Brawn guys do the same if it was Vettel?
Thanks, there should be more of this stuff on youtube or even the f1 site, I cant see a reason for taking it down but not making it available elsewhere.

It would be a very brave brawn mechanic that did the same to Vettel :D
The reasons to take it down are obvious. Copyright madness ;p

Thanks CHT for that clip. It appears I was correct that Heikki did "park" it way too close to the Brawn pit-stop area. But also there doesn't seem to be room after the Brawn area to park it. I think I see the white line of the end the pit area just ahead so he had little choice.
Let me analyse it bit by bit:

At first I notice a blanket from a tyre is lying to the left of Heikki's car, on the road, but a mechanic pulls it back before it makes a problem for Rai. A rear wheel mechanic does that (I will explain how this is slightly important). Then I notice the front tyres are already changed before the fuel pump is inserted! The left rear tyre appears to be the last one fitted, a mechanic is seen spinning the tyre "shield" into place. Then the car's rear part is lowered down and the lollipop guy immediately raises it without looking at the fuel guys. He might be looking at Rai. He doesn't look too alarmed by the flying hose and he instead looks the other way and instead he pulls the mechanic next to him closer to the pits (and out of Rai's way, though he was just standing in the red area).

What we need to remember is that Hamilton pitted right before Heikki (a brilliant strategy change that won him 3rd place). Note how there are 2 stacks of 2 tyres on the right side of the car (did they use a different fuel rig for Hamilton I wonder?). This accounts for a delay with the fuel rig (and maybe the rear tyres as well and the hastily thrown blanket). It might seem like the lollipop guy was only looking to ruin Rai's race, but that's just impossible to pull off and idiotic to consider. What we clearly see is that Heikki is released immediately after Rai so it wasn't an unsafe release... if not for the attached fuel hose of course. He was safely ahead of Rai (not like Massa nearly collided with another car in a totally unsafe release a year ago). We also clearly see Rai has no rear light blinking. I ask again. What's up with that? Is there a penalty/rule for that?

Finally I want to analyse what happened at the end of the pit stops. It seems the Brawn mechanics are almost expecting Heikki. They are pulling the top-hanging cables before he's there, unlike the other teams who aren't reacting much. But the first person to approach Heikki is a fire extinguisher guy in black. A guy in white (mostly) then runs from (maybe) inside the Brawn pits and it is him who removes the fuel hose. I noticed that Heikki stopped and then moved a bit more as if to allow that person to align with the hose and remove it. Or to get the fire extinguisher guy in better position, or to go more ahead of Brawn pits and not block them, but changed his mind immediately.
Would be nice to get Heikki's radio from the incident. Overall it's a weird incident. Maybe they planned it, but to what gain? And it had to be planned in less than a minute because how could they know what would happen in the first lap before the race? The most reasonable assessment is that someone from McLaren pits called Brawn and asked for help (unlikely) or that a team manager (or something) at Brawn decided on the spur of the moment to help and gave word to his mechanics (hence why they pull their hanging cables and in this way signal Heikki to stop near them). I think this last theory is the most likely.