2025 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort, Aug 29 - 31

[langedweil]

Think we’ve seen some special laps today. Top 4 in particular

Yeah, 0.263 for Ver wasn't shabby, and Had had a brilliant lap .. good for him !

[langedweil]

don't think it'll matter much, but here are the tires everyone should have left for the race (tbc):

https://i.imgur.com/5ZGT38T.png

M/H for everyone apparently ..

[venkyhere]

Expecting a Q time of 1:08:9xx to 1:09.0xx for the McL39 and a Q time of 1:09.8xx to 1:09.9xx for the RB21

Looks like I nailed it , just that it was FP3
In quali we might see :
the McL39 be faster by 0.1-0.15, ie 1:08:8xx
and
the RB21 to be faster by 0.3, ie 1:09:6xx.

Expecting P3 fight between VER and RUS.

Well this got blown to bits, Redbull definitely improved the balance on their car.
I expected the hotter track temps of the afternoon to pare back performance a bit, but looks like track evolution over FP3->Q1>Q2 was unusually massive. 1:08:6xx is an insane pole time. And the stumbling RB21 to be 1:08:9xx is equally insane, considering how bad it was on Friday.

[mwillems]

The track became green with the rain so there was a lot of evolution to come and we'd seen the trajectory yesterday.

Max has come alive in Q2 or Q3 a few times so you cant really predict that, but even so I think you were flattering Mclarens advantage a bit much, we werent going to be 8 tenths ahead.

[venkyhere]

The track became green with the rain so there was a lot of evolution to come and we'd seen the trajectory yesterday.

Max has come alive in Q2 or Q3 a few times so you cant really predict that, but even so I think you were flattering Mclarens advantage a bit much, we werent going to be 8 tenths ahead.

Right.
The FP3 engine modes by McLaren were stronger than I estimated.
Looking at Q data, the RB21 loses more than 1/2 a second in just three turns : 1,3,11-12. All of them slow ones. So it's the clever front suspension design on the McL39, that offers stellar mechanical grip and rotation that is the difference.

[mwillems]

I need to make my site live, but ive a chart that shows progression from fps 1,2 and 3 to Q. Typically, but not always, RB find a lot more time coming into Q than Mclaren who are usually at the lower end.

This is partially why so many expected more from Mclaren in Q sessions this year. But its just the way they were running.

[search]

don't think it'll matter much, but here are the tires everyone should have left for the race (tbc):

https://i.imgur.com/5ZGT38T.png

M/H for everyone apparently ..

yeah, apart from some backmarkers, I guess. Unless Verstappen starts on softs and goes for one stop more again - which actually may even make sense, with Hadjar likely to block the competition behind.

[venkyhere]

Out of curiosity, I was comparing the Q laptimes at Zandvoort :
2023 RB19 : 24.324 , 24.504 , 21.739
2024 RB20 : 24.073 , 24.731 , 21.225
2024 MCL38 : 23.824 , 24.819 , 21.030

The most interesting takeway is the amount of swing in the sector times. It's known that the RB is generally faster than the McL in the high speed corners (most of S2) , but didn't expect so much swing - perhaps its the different downforce level choices as S1 is dominated by medium speed corners and S3 has one mega slow section (T11-T12). Which in turn means we will witness a myriad spectrum of wing levels as 'the setup' across teams, come qualifying on saturday.

Another interesting takaway is how the RB20 is a massive improvement (-0.5s+) over the 'world beater' RB19 (shows how bad the rest of the grid was, in 2019). Indication of what a mega monster the McL38 itself was. No words for the McL39, it's going to wipe the floor with the rest of the grid.

Just to reach a logical conclusion w.r.t above post :

2023 RB19 : 24.324 , 24.504 , 21.739
2024 RB20 : 24.073 , 24.731 , 21.225
2024 RB21 : 23.648 , 24.365 , 20.912
2024 McL38 : 23.824 , 24.819 , 21.030
2025 McL39 : 23.367 , 24.476 , 20.819
(note : sector times are from best lap, not best sectors from all laps or best sectors across the team)

The deltas from last year for both teams is very telling (improvement of 1s+ over such a short lap) :

• not all of the 1s is from softer tyre compound w.r.t last year.

• Redbull improving the slow/medium speed without sacrificing their high speed strength.

• McLaren improving on all types of corners.

Contrary to popular belief, the RB21, despite it's problems is an improved car over the RB20 ; just that it looks bad in front of the McL39 which has made a massive step over the McL38. This track, with long radius corners, and not many super heavy braking/traction zones is a good indicator of aero/mechanical performance.

[CjC]

Detailed as always Venkyhere.

I was thinking yesterday, if Mclaren was still a midfield team, Max would have cruised to the last 3 of his WDCs and would still be cruising to his 5th this season.

[venkyhere]

And guess what.... the RB21 is a whopping 1.6s+ faster than the 'world beater' RB19.That's massive over a 70 second lap, without heavy braking/traction zones. Improvement in every single corner type - slow/medium/fast/short/long. Debunks the narrative that Redbull car development fell off a cliff once Newey left. Redbull under Wache have definitely improved the performance, just that it looks less significant in front of the insane progress made by McLaren. It also shows that other teams have also understood the regs well, and have made similar progress as Redbull. As it should be, in the progressive years of a regulation.

[woocasz]

And guess what.... the RB21 is a whopping 1.6s+ faster than the 'world beater' RB19.That's massive over a 70 second lap, without heavy braking/traction zones. Improvement in every single corner type - slow/medium/fast/short/long. Debunks the narrative that Redbull car development fell off a cliff once Newey left. Redbull under Wache have definitely improved the performance, just that it looks less significant in front of the insane progress made by McLaren. It also shows that other teams have also understood the regs well, and have made similar progress as Redbull. As it should be, in the progressive years of a regulation.

tyres...
one step softer (according to pirelli 0,5s - 1,0s)
so, thats not that impressive if you take tyres into consideration (dont forget that in 2023, conditions were mixed in Quali, so this difference would be even smaller. )
over 2 years of development and "only" less than a second improvement is kind of poor

[MB_Racer]

How is the weather looking for the race ?

[Wouter]

How is the weather looking for the race ?

.
Dry, maybe at the end 4 / 4:15 pm some very light rain.

[MB_Racer]

How is the weather looking for the race ?

.
Dry, maybe at the end 4 / 4:15 pm some very light rain.

Thanks a lot let’s pray for this to happen

[search]

Verstappen starting on Softs should hopefully spice up things a bit