Was Brawn allowed to remove Mclaren fuel rig?

[Richard]

Is WRC where all external assistance is punishable

On that specific point, the F1 pit lane is like the WRC service area. No assistance outside the area/lane.

Is there a rule in WRC specificly stating that assistance can only come from your own team?

There isn't a rule like that in F1.

edit - I've gone through the F1 sporting code again to quote the relevant rule .. but there isn't one to quote. Just rules about where a car can be serviced but not who. Hard to quote something that doesn't exist!

edit 2 - Found the rule in the WRC that has no equiv in F1:

56.2.1 At a remote service zone, the following may work on their car(s):
- For one car, the crew plus up to 4 team personnel. These team personnel shall remain the same while the car is in the zone.

[Skunk0001]

But can't you still get spectators to help push your car out a ditch, or back on its wheels, in the WRC?

I thought it was great that Brawn helped Kovi.

[CHT]

Is WRC where all external assistance is punishable

On that specific point, the F1 pit lane is like the WRC service area. No assistance outside the area/lane.

Is there a rule in WRC specificly stating that assistance can only come from your own team?

There isn't a rule like that in F1.

edit - I've gone through the F1 sporting code again to quote the relevant rule .. but there isn't one to quote. Just rules about where a car can be serviced but not who. Hard to quote something that doesn't exist!

edit 2 - Found the rule in the WRC that has no equiv in F1:

56.2.1 At a remote service zone, the following may work on their car(s):
- For one car, the crew plus up to 4 team personnel. These team personnel shall remain the same while the car is in the zone.

If team can be penalized 25million quid for stealing rival technical secret to gain a few tenths of second, it is hard to believe that F1 teams should be allowed to work in pairs or group to gain advantage over their rival in the pit lane.
Lets face it, Brawn GP engineers will not do the same if the car parked in front belongs to Vettel or Webber or a Ferrari.

I am sure if Hamilton would have lost his WDC because of assistance from Force India guys at last year's Singapore GP, the view of the situation and the rules will be totally different.

Maybe RBR should take advantage of the non-action from FIA to use Torro Rosso as the back up pit crew for the championship next season. So assuming if Webber or Vettel have a loose wheel nut, they should be able to get it fix further down the pit lane next season because of "safety" reason

[Richard]

you still get spectators to help push your car out a ditch, or back on its wheels, in the WRC?

Good point!

[Richard]

...

Too many ifs and buts and maybes... last season was last season, its gone.

Maybe RBR should take advantage of the non-action from FIA to use Torro Rosso as the back up pit crew for the championship next season. So assuming if Webber or Vettel have a loose wheel nut, they should be able to get it fix further down the pit lane next season because of "safety" reason

That sort of collusion would fall foul of the general rule for unsporting behaviour or bringing the sport into disrepute.

[CHT]

...

Too many ifs and buts and maybes... last season was last season, its gone.

Maybe RBR should take advantage of the non-action from FIA to use Torro Rosso as the back up pit crew for the championship next season. So assuming if Webber or Vettel have a loose wheel nut, they should be able to get it fix further down the pit lane next season because of "safety" reason

That sort of collusion would fall foul of the general rule for unsporting behaviour or bringing the sport into disrepute.

AFAIK, Merc is financial backer or possibly already a shareholder of Brawn GP while at the same time Daimler is the major shareholder of Mclaren.

[komninosm]

I am sure if Hamilton would have lost his WDC because of assistance from Force India guys at last year's Singapore GP, the view of the situation and the rules will be totally different.

Only because you're biased FIArrari fan. Personally I wouldn't mind at all if someone had done the same for Massa. The championship isn't determined in one race, but in 18 (or whatever). And if someone wanted to bitch about last year if Massa had won they wouldn't whine about Singapore where Massa would not have won any points anyway, but of Spa or some other FIA decision.
Remember that even if Massa was helped he would still get a penalty for unsafe release (he nearly crashed into another car, unlike Heikki who was released well ahead of Rai) and his race was ruined. Also I seem to recall there was a SC and Massa would be on the back of last car behind it whether he was helped (and saved some seconds) or not.

[andartop]

Massa's release was unsafe, but Heikki's was unsafe as well, regardless of the fact there was sufficient space between Heikki and Kimi. I mean, because McLaren screwed up their pit stop Kimi was set on fire. What could be more unsafe than that, shooting him with a shotgun???

[Richard]

Oh dear. I'd hoped this thread had moved to an examination of the rules. Alas we're heading for fanboy ying yang again

Well at least I'm richer for it having read the F1 and WRC rules. In summary:
- F1 defines what cannot happen on the track
- WRC defines what can happen in the service area

The result is that spectators often help drivers back on the circuit in WRC, but only the two people in the car and 4 named others can service the car.

In F1, only a driver may touch the car on the track other than marshalls to remove the car. No mention of who can touch the car in the pit lane.

[Pup]

Six pages. Unbelievable.

[Richard]

Six pages. Unbelievable.

Soon to be 7 with all these expressions of unbelievability!

.... including this one

We should direct future posters to here ... http://www.shibumi.org/eoti.htm

[komninosm]

Massa's release was unsafe, but Heikki's was unsafe as well, regardless of the fact there was sufficient space between Heikki and Kimi. I mean, because McLaren screwed up their pit stop Kimi was set on fire. What could be more unsafe than that, shooting him with a shotgun???

Except Massa's release would be unsafe even without the hose attached. It was unsafe for 2 reasons, while Heikki's was unsafe only for the accidental reason (hose attached). And anyway no one has answered why McLaren was fined 50k and Ferrari 10k and why Massa was given a drive through while Heikki was given 25 seconds after the fact.
And finally when are you going to acknowledge that no rule was broken and your whining was for nought?

EDIT: As for what would be more unsafe, well crashing into him (like what Massa nearly did) would probably be more unsafe (especially in the pits where there's a lot of people to "catch" flying debris). The fireball was spectacular but really not that dangerous at all. Even with the visor open Kimi wasn't affected enough to retire. Had the visor been closed he would not be affected at all.

[andartop]

Six pages. Unbelievable.

Well, we've had 54 bloody pages of posts regarding Renault's Singapore scandal (which certainly qualifies as a ridiculous affair altogether!), 28 pages about Schumi's return (which never happened!) and 9 pages about a single comment Martin Brundle made on Jenson Button!!!

Well at least I'm richer for it having read the F1 and WRC rules. In summary:
- F1 defines what cannot happen on the track
- WRC defines what can happen in the service area

The result is that spectators often help drivers back on the circuit in WRC, but only the two people in the car and 4 named others can service the car.

In F1, only a driver may touch the car on the track other than marshalls to remove the car. No mention of who can touch the car in the pit lane.

Thanks richard for actually looking at the rules and helping make all of us a bit wiser. This is all this thread is (should be) about.. So, there appears to be a gap in the F1 regulations regarding who may or may not touch a car in the pit lane, or under which circumstances another team's mechanics (or anyone else) can or should intervene. As it is, I believe this incident has created a precedent which someone might take advantage of in the future in order to gain an unfair advantage. Me thinks it should be clarified.

[Richard]

As it is, I believe this incident has created a precedent which someone might take advantage of in the future in order to gain an unfair advantage. Me thinks it should be clarified.

That's where we differ. Any team that takes advantage of that would fall foul of unsporting behaviour. So no need to clarify. They have that catch all caveat of unsporting behaviour so they don't need a rule for everything.

[CHT]

As it is, I believe this incident has created a precedent which someone might take advantage of in the future in order to gain an unfair advantage. Me thinks it should be clarified.

That's where we differ. Any team that takes advantage of that would fall foul of unsporting behaviour. So no need to clarify. They have that catch all caveat of unsporting behaviour so they don't need a rule for everything.

If Brawn GP (a Mercedes linked team) could assist Mclaren (another Mercedes linked team), I dont see why a RBR receiving assistance by STR pit crew will be deemed as unsporting behavior. And btw, who is to decide?