Red Bull RB21

[venkyhere]

Another thing which I have been noticing of late (random pics and some front-on shots from the TV cameras during the sessions) : The RB21's "new" nose - the duck-billed-platypus ones, are all so 'high sitting' compared to the ones on any other teams' cars. From the place where it gets attached to the front crash structure, the nose doesn't slide down towards the front as much as it does on other cars. As a result of this, we can see how much the front wing is shaped (all planes) to 'fall-down' in both lateral directions toward the left and right wheels. It's very extreme.

What could be the reason ? My dumb guess, is that it's
either :
to pave a much cleaner entry for the air to hit the front of the floor/tea-tray down the middle of the car
or :
to enhance the downwash towards the sides

Thoughts please...

[Farnborough]

To place a perception/observation .... this front wing currently in use, appears to be moving to more dihedral (dihedral in aircraft lift application, but inverted for downforce here) that in greater perceived effect against their competitors.

Unsure if that's true, but as indicated my perception of that geometry in static layout ( not under stress) is moved to more dramatic effect with the outer tips obviously below the centre section under nose. The lowest wing plane also having its leading edge more lifted coming out from that centreline section.

IF so .... that would appear to favour less disturbed and more volume feed toward floor entry architecture and outwash via outboard "barge" strake arrangement.

I've made it clear this being perception of change over this season, this RB21 having noticeable more distance from ground under the immediate centre than the McL39 as reference.

I've already noted, and questioned that aspect a page back.

Agree with you, in that the drop from centre to outer ends of wing looks much more pronounced than competitors.

We'll see during this weekend, but the chassis seems to be coming alive with this and accompanying changes.

[venkyhere]

To place a perception/observation .... this front wing currently in use, appears to be moving to more dihedral (dihedral in aircraft lift application, but inverted for downforce here) that in greater perceived effect against their competitors.

Unsure if that's true, but as indicated my perception of that geometry in static layout ( not under stress) is moved to more dramatic effect with the outer tips obviously below the centre section under nose. The lowest wing plane also having its leading edge more lifted coming out from that centreline section.

IF so .... that would appear to favour less disturbed and more volume feed toward floor entry architecture and outwash via outboard "barge" strake arrangement.

I've made it clear this being perception of change over this season, this RB21 having noticeable more distance from ground under the immediate centre than the McL39 as reference.

I've already noted, and questioned that aspect a page back.

Agree with you, in that the drop from centre to outer ends of wing looks much more pronounced than competitors.

We'll see during this weekend, but the chassis seems to be coming alive with this and accompanying changes.

Oops, I don't know how I missed that post of yours. Usually I am less absent minded with car threads. But alas....
Anyway, glad that our observations align.

[euv2]

Lots of subtle changes, top flap reprofiling and camber increase being the most noticeable. The little extension from the top flap to nose has also been changed. Flap supports also moved. The amount of yellow paint on the nose is also reduced, should result in a 0.0005s gain per lap.

[Badger]

Lots of subtle changes, top flap reprofiling and camber increase being the most noticeable. The little extension from the top flap to nose has also been changed. Flap supports also moved. The amount of yellow paint on the nose is also reduced, should result in a 0.0005s gain per lap.

It looks like the same top element, but they’ve possibly bent/creased the upper part to create more camber, then adjusted the supports for where the load will be. Cheap and effective.

I’m not a carbon composites expert, but is it possible to reshape set carbon using heat? Presumably the resin will have a melting point.

[marcel171281]

Lots of subtle changes, top flap reprofiling and camber increase being the most noticeable. The little extension from the top flap to nose has also been changed. Flap supports also moved. The amount of yellow paint on the nose is also reduced, should result in a 0.0005s gain per lap.

It looks like the same top element, but they’ve possibly bent/creased the upper part to create more camber, then adjusted the supports for where the load will be. Cheap and effective.

I’m not a carbon composites expert, but is it possible to reshape set carbon using heat? Presumably the resin will have a melting point.

No. Not possible, it will result in internal delamination between the layers, especially when the weave in the layer are in different directions. This is a new part, 100%.

[Badger]

No. Not possible, it will result in internal delamination between the layers, especially when the weave in the layer are in different directions. This is a new part, 100%.

Okay, I guess that’s why you need the autoclave.

[zioture]

[organic]

They must've found a rich vein of development on the front wing considering the number of iterations in this area recently.. Is the central flap extension what has enabled this?

I'm imagining that the extra flick is generating a vortex that rolls outboard and would drive downwash/help counter upwash from the midspan of the wing. The cranked outboard section would increase inwash which would then work together with that extra flick up to manipulate the airflow towards the floor tunnels? This is how I'm imagining it working maybe it's off-base

Because I'm trying to understand what the trigger was behind the concept shift

[Badger]

They must've found a rich vein of development on the front wing considering the number of iterations in this area recently.. Is the central flap extension what has enabled this?

I'm imagining that the extra flick is generating a vortex that rolls outboard and would drive downwash/help counter upwash from the midspan of the wing. The cranked outboard section would increase inwash which would then work together with that extra flick up to manipulate the airflow towards the floor tunnels? This is how I'm imagining it working maybe it's off-base

Because I'm trying to understand what the trigger was behind the concept shift

Honestly I think it has got nothing to do with flow management to the floor and everything to do with just piling on as much load on the front as possible. More camber, add flick-ups, add gurney flaps. All to give Max that compensation on the front when they're running a high downforce rear wing. Primitive stuff, but effective.

[Brahmal]

What could be the reason ? My dumb guess, is that it's
either :
to pave a much cleaner entry for the air to hit the front of the floor/tea-tray down the middle of the car
or :
to enhance the downwash towards the sides

Thoughts please...

Raising the front wing will also reduce the amount of ground-effect it produces.

[organic]

What could be the reason ? My dumb guess, is that it's
either :
to pave a much cleaner entry for the air to hit the front of the floor/tea-tray down the middle of the car
or :
to enhance the downwash towards the sides

Thoughts please...

Raising the front wing will also reduce the amount of ground-effect it produces.

I think the current front wings are mandated to be very high up using reg boxes, so the ground effect is significantly less than in the previous regulation set at the front wing. It's not as much of a concern

[FW17]

Why is the gear downshifts always a problem for Max? Is it him being in the wrong configuration on his steering wheel or is it something that is a hardware issue that has limited the performance through the degerdation cycle.

[AriaanGert]

They must've found a rich vein of development on the front wing considering the number of iterations in this area recently.. Is the central flap extension what has enabled this?

I'm imagining that the extra flick is generating a vortex that rolls outboard and would drive downwash/help counter upwash from the midspan of the wing. The cranked outboard section would increase inwash which would then work together with that extra flick up to manipulate the airflow towards the floor tunnels? This is how I'm imagining it working maybe it's off-base

Because I'm trying to understand what the trigger was behind the concept shift

Honestly I think it has got nothing to do with flow management to the floor and everything to do with just piling on as much load on the front as possible. More camber, add flick-ups, add gurney flaps. All to give Max that compensation on the front when they're running a high downforce rear wing. Primitive stuff, but effective.

That is the way it looks, but why didn't they do this before? Max was asking for more Front all the time. Isn't it possible that the new floor is less vulnerable for this aggressive front wing, so they can finally do it?

[venkyhere]

Why is the gear downshifts always a problem for Max? Is it him being in the wrong configuration on his steering wheel or is it something that is a hardware issue that has limited the performance through the degerdation cycle.

This "shifts being a problem" - we've been hearing this sporadically in random races, since 2022, iirc.
I think it's got to do with something in the powertrain that can't be 'solved' perhaps because Honda haven't been there in full capacity in the ground effect era, or because it will blow their budget working on powertrain redesign.