2025 McLaren F1 Team

[venkyhere]

So the rocket ship changed the garage.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/G4Dtr6BWIAA ... name=large

To notice that last McLaren performance update for MCL39 was in Spa, so 7 races ago.

This chart by F1tv is childish, it doesn't take into account 'mistakes' made by drivers, it doesn't take into account 'pace management' by leader (because he is always under the threat of a safety car, and has to preserve tyres if he wants to start from P1 on restart). Don't take this chart as gospel, it's meant for the casual audience. Just like the 'minimum speed' graphic being considered the holy grail of a corner by F1tv.

So the chart was right when MCL39 was fastest and all RBR fans saying McLaren has a rocketship but now is not accurate and needs to be taken with caution? C'mon. The idea is that now RBR21 is the fastest car on track.

Who said this ? The McL39 was the fastest car before the Monza updates, and that is not because of the chart. I am talking of the delta numbers shown (0.08, 0.16 etc) - which is not representative.
Btw, I never claimed this chart was right ever before. This is some data crunching operation based on all 'lap data' just by eliminating in-out-laps for pitstops and VSC/SC laps. That doesn't represent a true picture, doesn't take into account 'driving to a delta' which happens all the time.

[Badger]

So the rocket ship changed the garage.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/G4Dtr6BWIAA ... name=large

To notice that last McLaren performance update for MCL39 was in Spa, so 7 races ago.

This chart by F1tv is childish, it doesn't take into account 'mistakes' made by drivers, it doesn't take into account 'pace management' by leader (because he is always under the threat of a safety car, and has to preserve tyres if he wants to start from P1 on restart). Don't take this chart as gospel, it's meant for the casual audience. Just like the 'minimum speed' graphic being considered the holy grail of a corner by F1tv.

So the chart was right when MCL39 was fastest and all RBR fans saying McLaren has a rocketship but now is not accurate and needs to be taken with caution? C'mon. The idea is that now RBR21 is the fastest car on track.

This chart has always been complete nonsense in the way it markets itself as pure “car performance”. It just averages the most recent quali performances from the top performing car in the team. No regards for race pace, no regards for underperformances (like Baku), no regard for track specific performance (Singapore), and it obviously treats all drivers as equal when they are not. So it’s not actually “car performance” as much as it is “driver and car performance in qualifying across recent races”. And quite frankly you don’t need this chart to know that Max + RB21 is currently top of that ranking, just look at the recent quali results.

When this chart came up yesterday Jolyon Palmer could barely contain his disbelief at the idea that McLaren was “slower” than Mercedes. It’s obviously laughable.

[Darth-Piekus]

What if it's all a good show to create drama and we are playing perfectly into it fighting like children over who's hero has it bigger? I've just read an interesting comment from a neutral fan . Here's the comment.

McLaren just needs to win ONE damn race — that’s it. Everything else feels like a scripted drama. Everyone’s playing their role perfectly. How do you ‘lose’ half a second overnight and Red Bull just happens to find it? Come on. It’s all for the show — gotta make the audience believe there’s still a fight going on. Otherwise, the championship would’ve been wrapped up before the halfway point.I called it right after the first quali post-summer break — you could see it coming a mile away. Without this fake back-and-forth, we’d have like ten dead races in a row. Unless, of course, there actually is some FIA shadow ban in play… in which case, waiting until McLaren basically had the Constructors or both titles locked up before doing anything is just straight-up laughable.

So what do you think? Tinfoil hat or are there things in the background we don't know?

[hollus]

...or are there things in the background we don't know?

Come on, If we don't know, we don't know. Rumor from a hear say from a source somewhere.

Let's discuss facts, or at least theories. Tin foil smoke evidence, no thanks.

[CjC]

This chart by F1tv is childish, it doesn't take into account 'mistakes' made by drivers, it doesn't take into account 'pace management' by leader (because he is always under the threat of a safety car, and has to preserve tyres if he wants to start from P1 on restart). Don't take this chart as gospel, it's meant for the casual audience. Just like the 'minimum speed' graphic being considered the holy grail of a corner by F1tv.

So the chart was right when MCL39 was fastest and all RBR fans saying McLaren has a rocketship but now is not accurate and needs to be taken with caution? C'mon. The idea is that now RBR21 is the fastest car on track.

This chart has always been complete nonsense in the way it markets itself as pure “car performance”. It just averages the most recent quali performances from the top performing car in the team. No regards for race pace, no regards for underperformances (like Baku), no regard for track specific performance (Singapore), and it obviously treats all drivers as equal when they are not. So it’s not actually “car performance” as much as it is “driver and car performance in qualifying across recent races”. And quite frankly you don’t need this chart to know that Max + RB21 is currently top of that ranking, just look at the recent quali results.

When this chart came up yesterday Jolyon Palmer could barely contain his disbelief at the idea that McLaren was “slower” than Mercedes. It’s obviously laughable.

Good to know I wasn’t the only one

[SilviuAgo]

So the chart was right when MCL39 was fastest and all RBR fans saying McLaren has a rocketship but now is not accurate and needs to be taken with caution? C'mon. The idea is that now RBR21 is the fastest car on track.

This chart has always been complete nonsense in the way it markets itself as pure “car performance”. It just averages the most recent quali performances from the top performing car in the team. No regards for race pace, no regards for underperformances (like Baku), no regard for track specific performance (Singapore), and it obviously treats all drivers as equal when they are not. So it’s not actually “car performance” as much as it is “driver and car performance in qualifying across recent races”. And quite frankly you don’t need this chart to know that Max + RB21 is currently top of that ranking, just look at the recent quali results.

When this chart came up yesterday Jolyon Palmer could barely contain his disbelief at the idea that McLaren was “slower” than Mercedes. It’s obviously laughable.

Good to know I wasn’t the only one

I think was missed also what James or Alain said after the graph was shown: that that progress show that red Bull made the most gain from Bahrain to Austin, that Mercedes had recovered vs RBR, McLaren lost to RBR and so on.
That means we had a gap in Australia, and to that gap McLaren - RBR le-t say, McLaren lost almost 2 tenths. So at least this is what my English understood.
But my point also stays, now RBR is the fastest car on track, so we can not talk anymore of a rocketship in McLaren hands.

[venkyhere]

I don't know why so many members are trying so hard to establish that their favourite team's/driver's car ISN'T the fastest one with 5 races to go. As if that notion is somehow providing some 'moral relief' if a Mclaren driver doesn't win the WDC. It doesn't. If McLaren don't win WDC (unlikely but still there is a 1% chance) the team and drivers ALONE are squarely responsible. Because the McL39 has been the most dominant car for atleast 2/3rds of the season, and were winning P1-P2 double podiums left right and center. There can't be a debate about that. And there is nothing wrong in accepting that responsibility, as it has happened with teams and drivers before as well.

[SilviuAgo]

And I don't know what is the problem to admit that now RedBull has the fastest car? Is not "moral relief" if Lando or Oscar are not winning the championship. I want to happen and I am sure it will. But I saw that a lot of people are praising "max resurrections" like he is winning the races in a Haas or Alpine. He is winning also cause has the best car after McLaren stood still for 7 races. When he hadn't a mega updated package every race he was finishing P9 in Hungary or 1 minute behind in Miami.

[venkyhere]

And I don't know what is the problem to admit that now RedBull has the fastest car? Is not "moral relief" if Lando or Oscar are not winning the championship. I want to happen and I am sure it will. But I saw that a lot of people are praising "max resurrections" like he is winning the races in a Haas or Alpine. He is winning also cause has the best car after McLaren stood still for 7 races. When he hadn't a mega updated package every race he was finishing P9 in Hungary or 1 minute behind in Miami.

Redbull has the fastest car as shown in Monza/Baku ; Clearly it wasn't the fastest in Singapore, it's debatable whether it was the fastest in Austin. The point is, it's still an inconsistent car. Who are these 'lot of people' ? I am not one. A driver, no matter how talented he is, cannot drive faster than what the car can theoretically do. But the best drivers 'consistently' get really close to the theoretical laptime possible from the car. Please view my comments 'objectively', without wearing papaya tinted glasses. I guess everyone in this thread (apart from DarthPiekus, maybe) will agree that in terms of being consistent and mistake free, Max is better than Norris and Piastri. But then that disadvantage was more than offset by the Mclaren engg team providing both of them with a blockbuster car. Hence my statement that if one of their drivers don't win WDC, it's not a fault with the car, but with the drivers and race operations and the papaya orchard.

[mwillems]

And in some races Red Bull were faster on the Saturday but we had the better race car. Weve been better all season in race, on the whole.
It is the Saturdays that have harmed us in general and more so lately.

[f1isgood]

And I don't know what is the problem to admit that now RedBull has the fastest car? Is not "moral relief" if Lando or Oscar are not winning the championship. I want to happen and I am sure it will. But I saw that a lot of people are praising "max resurrections" like he is winning the races in a Haas or Alpine. He is winning also cause has the best car after McLaren stood still for 7 races. When he hadn't a mega updated package every race he was finishing P9 in Hungary or 1 minute behind in Miami.

Redbull has the fastest car as shown in Monza/Baku ; Clearly it wasn't the fastest in Singapore, it's debatable whether it was the fastest in Austin. The point is, it's still an inconsistent car. Who are these 'lot of people' ? I am not one. A driver, no matter how talented he is, cannot drive faster than what the car can theoretically do. But the best drivers 'consistently' get really close to the theoretical laptime possible from the car. Please view my comments 'objectively', without wearing papaya tinted glasses. I guess everyone in this thread (apart from DarthPiekus, maybe) will agree that in terms of being consistent and mistake free, Max is better than Norris and Piastri. But then that disadvantage was more than offset by the Mclaren engg team providing both of them with a blockbuster car. Hence my statement that if one of their drivers don't win WDC, it's not a fault with the car, but with the drivers and race operations and the papaya orchard.

I don't think it's clear cut Red Bull were the best car at Baku. It was a muddy weekend with both McLaren drivers failing to produce the goods at the right time.

[f1isgood]

And in some races Red Bull were faster on the Saturday but we had the better race car. Weve been better all season in race, on the whole.
It is the Saturdays that have harmed us in general and more so lately.

I think Imola and Monza are the only two races where Verstappen and Red Bull clearly had an advantage. Even then the advantage was nothing like what McLaren showed for basically every other race. Every track condition, hot or cold, the McLaren car was always there. At Singapore, McLaren's might have won with a better qualifying and Canada is the Mercedes outlier.

[Emag]

On average throughout the whole season, I think it's impossible to deny McLaren has been the outright best car, unless you're deluded. Since Monza though, things have been different. I don't think there's any significant advantage anymore. Especially at Monza, Max was never going to lose that race.

And season-wide I do keep track of some metrics at : https://f1insightshub.com/season_summary



RedBull, even on average throughout the entire season, has been the second best car and quite comfortably actually. Especially on qualifying.

The Performance gaps you see there are calculated by considering only the highest scoring driver of each session for each team, because I am trying to evaluate the peak performance of the car. An average of both drivers wouldn't reflect that.

For reference, Mercedes and Ferrari look quite a bit worse compared to McLaren (obviously) and RedBull :

[AR3-GP]

PIA still looks to be struggling.

[Darth-Piekus]

Tell me something Emag. Does that summary count qualifying performance on average from all year or is it from Australia till Monza?