This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
I recall Lando saying after the race there in ‘24 that he tried something different in the last stint to make it better and according to him it did.
It seems there are a few who have already bagged the 25 points from Vegas this season for Verstappen already as they seem to be so confident but as a McLaren fan I vividly recall how Ferrari last year were the hot favourites for Vegas and supposedly would dominate the race whey would take control of the WCC. It all sounds a bit similar to me this year too
Mclaren doesn't struggle as much with graining this year because tires are better. So I expect they will be competitive like they were in Monza and Baku. Ultimately, straight line speed is not their strength, so it's not really daring to predict they won't be the fastest there. Las Vegas is also bumpy. All of the ingredients are there for Mclaren to be 3rd fastest that weekend (bumpy, emphasis on straight line speed, low tire deg, no tire overheating).
Piastri struggled at all the street circuits so far. Leclerc is a street circuit specialist. The Mclaren drivers can't risk as much as the rest. It can quickly turn into a P4, P7 weekend or a P4 and DNF racing others with less to lose.
It’s not just down to graining. The cool track and ambient temperatures negate some of their strengths, namely cooling efficiency and thermal deg. Also low drag isn’t their sweet-spot. It’s still a very good car under all that, but I expect 4 teams to be competitive in Vegas.
All this Las Vegas discussion give me a Singapore feeling. When everybody was saying that McLaren will dominate and Max will struggle. And Max took a better P than McLaren drivers.
But until Las Vegas will have Interlagos, and this is next more important race. We have time to Las Vegas or AbuDhabi.
And a vizual comparison of "papaya" McLaren with Zak Brown.
All this Las Vegas discussion give me a Singapore feeling. When everybody was saying that McLaren will dominate and Max will struggle. And Max took a better P than McLaren drivers.
But until Las Vegas will have Interlagos, and this is next more important race. We have time to Las Vegas or AbuDhabi.
And a vizual comparison of "papaya" McLaren with Zak Brown.
I recall Lando saying after the race there in ‘24 that he tried something different in the last stint to make it better and according to him it did.
It seems there are a few who have already bagged the 25 points from Vegas this season for Verstappen already as they seem to be so confident but as a McLaren fan I vividly recall how Ferrari last year were the hot favourites for Vegas and supposedly would dominate the race whey would take control of the WCC. It all sounds a bit similar to me this year too
Mclaren doesn't struggle as much with graining this year because tires are better. So I expect they will be competitive like they were in Monza and Baku. Ultimately, straight line speed is not their strength, so it's not really daring to predict they won't be the fastest there. Las Vegas is also bumpy. All of the ingredients are there for Mclaren to be 3rd fastest that weekend (bumpy, emphasis on straight line speed, low tire deg, no tire overheating).
Piastri struggled at all the street circuits so far. Leclerc is a street circuit specialist. The Mclaren drivers can't risk as much as the rest. It can quickly turn into a P4, P7 weekend or a P4 and DNF racing others with less to lose.
It’s not just down to graining. The cool track and ambient temperatures negate some of their strengths, namely cooling efficiency and thermal deg. Also low drag isn’t their sweet-spot. It’s still a very good car under all that, but I expect 4 teams to be competitive in Vegas.
I believe there's more in nuanced effect than this too. Watch the minimum rear pressures they set ..... if Pirelli lift those to control/cap carcass flex and hence latent heat build in the structure (recall that being the case last year) then the Mercedes which hammers it's rears can be brought into parity with the McL chassis attributes, that in effect brings Merc forward against this team.
The mid 2023 rebirth with then the title for the next two year will be remembered in the future as an incredible story.
Failing the news regs initially and then being unstoppable.
They need to really enjoy it before 2026 arrive.
It has been a legendary part of McLaren history!
It is honestly one of the most impressive turnarounds I have seen in my time of following this sport. I legit "gave up" on McLaren after 2022 and early 2023, just thought they were heading into the Williams direction after 10 years of irrelevancy. 2023 in particular was just horrible, they were legitimately the slowest car on the grid for the first 3-4 races.
And then with 2 upgrades (the one in Austria being the big one obviously), they turn a bottom of the midfield car, to what was consistently the second fastest car. The only exceptions being tracks that severely exposed chassis weaknesses that were impossible to address with in-season development only.
Then they arguably started 2024 a little slow, but from Miami onwards, the car was (at least) top 2 pretty much everywhere, and again, very few weak tracks that exposed certain weaknesses. Flash forward a year later, they start 2025 as a clear nr 1 car and they maintained that until Monza. Things were a little bit closer after (with the exception of Mexico), but honestly, it's impressive as it is considering there's barely any upgrades on this car. It's pretty much what came out of pre season testing.
Austria 2023 started it all though. Perhaps (maybe) the most significant in-season upgrade since McLaren did it with the Germany-Hungary updates back in 2009.
Hard to believe a team principal wouldn't know his factory's name.
Wouldn't say this is a case of the TP not knowing the factory's name, but just a little slip. Might have had something else in mind and MLC just popped out. Happens quite often to me at least, so it makes sense. Unless someone here knows if a "MLC" exists and what is for.
Mclaren doesn't struggle as much with graining this year because tires are better. So I expect they will be competitive like they were in Monza and Baku. Ultimately, straight line speed is not their strength, so it's not really daring to predict they won't be the fastest there. Las Vegas is also bumpy. All of the ingredients are there for Mclaren to be 3rd fastest that weekend (bumpy, emphasis on straight line speed, low tire deg, no tire overheating).
Piastri struggled at all the street circuits so far. Leclerc is a street circuit specialist. The Mclaren drivers can't risk as much as the rest. It can quickly turn into a P4, P7 weekend or a P4 and DNF racing others with less to lose.
It’s not just down to graining. The cool track and ambient temperatures negate some of their strengths, namely cooling efficiency and thermal deg. Also low drag isn’t their sweet-spot. It’s still a very good car under all that, but I expect 4 teams to be competitive in Vegas.
I believe there's more in nuanced effect than this too. Watch the minimum rear pressures they set ..... if Pirelli lift those to control/cap carcass flex and hence latent heat build in the structure (recall that being the case last year) then the Mercedes which hammers it's rears can be brought into parity with the McL chassis attributes, that in effect brings Merc forward against this team.
This is confusing, why did they do that last year ? There are just straights and short corners in the LasVegas configuation, very little long corner lateral G scenarios that load up the 'core' of the tyre. Is it because of the high speed braking related 'flexing' ? but that is present in any track with 2-3 big straights. Kindly elaborate why they needed to do that (increase min. pressure)
Pirelli (actually all tyre producers for, virtually, all vehicles need to do this) lift the pressure in response to overall carcass flex as that builds heat, which ultimately uncontrolled, takes the structure toward failure as it effectively "unbonds" the integrated component/materials of that part of the tyre.
Lateral is clearly one part input to be considered.
Standing wave is another significant influence, arising from constant acceleration. To accelerate the vehicle the torque must "bunch" up the carcass as it travels down into the contact patch area, that levered against the traction patch. The tyre then "catches" up with itself (reforms its natural shape) as it leaves that location, giving rise to the "standing wave" descriptor as each little part of the tyre travels through that zone. The more flex, the more heat.
If it didn't make that wave against traction patch, then ultimately it wouldn't be able to accelerate the vehicle without sliping. This is most seen on drag race tyres, them aiming for a perfect "wrinkle" in optimum traction and hence acceleration.
If the tyre is too low in pressure, that wave goes into extreme size and overheats the structure. This track is significantly a constant almost uninterrupted traction zone.
You can see the driver balance the two heat ranges at beginning of stint (tread v carcass) in a fresh tyre mid race. Remember they're restricted for blanket heat now ..... for perhaps 6 laps they will lean gently on the tyre as the lack of flex from temp below ideal will let the tread slip, causing that to go over temperature and "grain" by shedding too much rubber and before the structure reaches full ideal level. Once the structure comes up, then the driver can really get stuck into the pace as is a symbiotic relationship .... structure flex allows tread to grip, gripped tread doesn't grain, effectively. Once the two are in that alliance then the car is fast.
Most recent obvious example was Verstappen out on softs in Mexico, 5/6 laps to bring them in, then up and away.
It can go the opposite way too (you see this when the driver is under extreme pressure straight out of a stop) beasts the tread, tread goes over temp, now it struggles to provide the leverage to enable enough flex and bring the structure effectively up to temp. This ultimately shortens the stint of that tyre, usually. The two may not come back into common/ideal temp range "companionship" without the driver dropping pace, wear through the graining, get the structure back up to sensible balance, then go again at more ideal temperature.
Too low a pressure set by Pirelli will see structure go overtemp, blistering and tread detachment is the risk they're calculating to avoid by raising pressure. They don't want that failure obviously, as usually it will occur at highest rotation speed, to catastrophic effect.
To place this in context with regard to McL, then if this McL39 has and ideal load etc to optimum target in tyre's structural flex, for the majority of races, but Mercedes is generally overloading them .... then lifting the base pressure can take McL 39 out of range (starving it of ideal flex) while helping Merc by that same reduction .... then helping them to keep the tyres in optimum symbiotic balance. One goes faster, the other slower.
Thanks, so it's indeed not just 'peak flex' that matters, but also the 'sustained flex'. Since G wise, braking > acceleration I had considered only the peak flex from braking under the 'longitudinal' category.for core/carcass temp ; turns out the duration of sustained longitudinal acceleration from traction matters too (in addition to traction heating up the surface temps from micro-slipping). Of course, all this in addition to the 'lateral dominant' category tracks (Suzuka, Zandvoort, Brazil etc)...
Btw, was this 'higher than normal track' increased pressure imposed in Manza and Baku as well (for obvious reasons) ?
Historically it has been at Baku, remember where both MV & LS ? tyre's let go (classic running at temp limit, then to fail at highest rotation demand) there, with all teams apparently squeezing that lower limit by various method at the time.
Although both Baku and Monza are similar for absolute peak speed, they are very different in the shere amount of low to medium speed traction events they place on the tyre. They effectively look different from pressure and structural risk.
For accuracy in analysis, there need to be table of pressures used and contrasted against the effective performance of these chassis to build more conclusions.
Sometimes the pressure is included in the pre-race information panel on race threads here, but not always. Additionally, they sometimes evolve the pressure if they are seeing close to failure temperature in core through initial FP plus used carcass analysis. This may not always be commented on though, more likely drivers indicate by moaning about loss of grip when there's need to do that.
Note, that there's been almost nil whole tyre failure, particularly rear, as they tightened pressure monitoring in recent years.
The irony, for McL certainly, is that Pirelli have to respond to whole field with adjustment .... this to cope with worse case scenario. If we accept that this McL39 is the season's leader in terms of tyre management, then moving the pressure upwards will reward the outliers (seems to be Merc for rears) by making the tyre more resilient/resistant and subsequently closing the gap to McL which may have no problem with a lower pressure setting.
Thanks, so it's indeed not just 'peak flex' that matters, but also the 'sustained flex'. Since G wise, braking > acceleration I had considered only the peak flex from braking under the 'longitudinal' category.for core/carcass temp ; turns out the duration of sustained longitudinal acceleration from traction matters too (in addition to traction heating up the surface temps from micro-slipping). Of course, all this in addition to the 'lateral dominant' category tracks (Suzuka, Zandvoort, Brazil etc)...
Btw, was this 'higher than normal track' increased pressure imposed in Manza and Baku as well (for obvious reasons) ?
I've explained the longitudinal, but you are correct that they can have concerns with lateral being dominant and responding to that element specifically, Silverstone being a good example of that as primary cause in needing raised pressure.
Oddly, as it also shows a little bit more of a picture, banking as in Zandvoort, I believe is more longitudinal as it was in infamous Michelin problem at Indionapolis, that as the car is subjected to centrifugal (near zero steering angle) in travelling that track topography. Michelin tyre philosophy generally having much more sidewall flex than Bridgestone typically at that time making them vulnerable.
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