2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
gruntguru
gruntguru
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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saviour stivala wrote:
06 Nov 2025, 11:13
. . . It seems these recovery when cornering are new, meaning this mode was not there before.
As shown by Wuzak above - there is NO MENTION of harvesting "during cornering" in the Technical Regulations. The Technical Regulations do mention harvesting in "partial load".

They also provide a formula giving the limits for partial load harvesting at any given load demand. (The Regulations (erroneously) use the term "engine power" to indicate the partial load demand. The term "PU output", "driver demand" or "power demand" would be more correct.)
Image
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If you apply the formula above, using a few examples of "driver demand", you can calculate roughly how much harvesting will be available for each.
Image
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My interpretation of the regulation is "for any driver demand less than full throttle, the control system may harvest at a rate given by the formula given in 5.4.5. For example if the mode selected is "maximum harvest" and the driver demand is 150 KW to the tyres, it is permitted to use fuel at the rate of 2336 MJ/hr which is equivalent to approximately 325 KW from the ICE. Since the driver only wants 150 KW at the tyres, the MGU-K will harvest at 175 KW.
.
I would be interested to hear your interpretation of this regulation (if different to mine).
je suis charlie

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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gruntguru wrote:
07 Nov 2025, 05:07
saviour stivala wrote:
06 Nov 2025, 11:13
I have explained more than once the new for 2026 rules allowing energy recovery when cornering, It seems these recovery when cornering are new, meaning this mode was not there before. Anyhow, once again: New regulations allow for MGU-K to recover energy during cornering, which is a change from previous years, this mode will happen by special maps, which triggers MGU-K into harvesting, even when driver lifts off throttle or is slightly using the brake pedal, these maps will increase engine revs (rpm) during this harvesting mode.
Engine revs cannot be controlled by maps. The driver selects a gear then engine revs will match the road speed for that particular gear.
Yes, engine revs are controlled indirectly by engine maps in formula 1, which are data tables within the ECU that manages how engine produce power in response to driver input. While the maps don't directly ''set'' a specific rev count, they control the torque output at different engine speeds and throttle positions, which determines the engine rev behavior, drivers can select different maps to change the throttle's response , for example, to have less aggressive map in wet conditions to prevent wheelspin, which keeps engine from revving to high. Engine maps are primarily a function of engine speed (RPM) and throttle position, defining how much torque the engine should deliver. The ECU uses these maps to manage the engine power output, affecting how the car accelerates and reaches different RPM'S.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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And yes, in 2026, F1 cars will recover energy during cornering by using the MGU-K unit to turn the car's inertia into electricity. And also yes, in 2026 formula 1 engine maps will increase engine revs during harvesting in corners, even with the driver of the throttle, to maximize energy recovery.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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And also 'yes', this mode, recovering energy while cornering (with the MGU-H removed) is new for 2026.

wuzak
wuzak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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I calculated the minimum rpm needed to get the maximum fuel flow values from 5.4.5

Power Equivalent Rpm
-50 796
-25 1702
0 2607
25 3513
50 4419
75 5324
100 6230
125 7135
150 8041
175 8946
200 9852
218 10500
225 10500

wuzak
wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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saviour stivala wrote:
07 Nov 2025, 07:10
And yes, in 2026, F1 cars will recover energy during cornering by using the MGU-K unit to turn the car's inertia into electricity. And also yes, in 2026 formula 1 engine maps will increase engine revs during harvesting in corners, even with the driver of the throttle, to maximize energy recovery.
I ask, again, how?

The engine maps will control the fuel flow based on various inputs, but they are not allowed to change rpm unless the driver demands more power.

The CPU is also not allowed to automatically change the gears.

Gear changes must be commanded by the driver.

The CPU can reject a shift if it will overrev the engine or will cause the engine to stall, otherwise it has to change gear within a set period after the command (200ms upshift, 300ms downshift).

Also, can you cite your source for this?

wuzak
wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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gruntguru wrote:
07 Nov 2025, 05:29
saviour stivala wrote:
06 Nov 2025, 11:13
. . . It seems these recovery when cornering are new, meaning this mode was not there before.
As shown by Wuzak above - there is NO MENTION of harvesting "during cornering" in the Technical Regulations. The Technical Regulations do mention harvesting in "partial load".
Actually, the rules do not specify when harvesting/recovery can occur, other than reducing the output of the MGUK from positive (deploying) to negative (harvesting) when at full driver power demand.

The rules do specify limits to the fuel flow at part throttle, which, I assume, is to limit the amount of power that can be recovered by fuel burning.

The rules do not forbid energy recovery in different situations either.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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saviour stivala wrote:
07 Nov 2025, 07:10
And yes, in 2026, F1 cars will recover energy during cornering by using the MGU-K unit to turn the car's inertia into electricity ...
nonsense !
the car's inertia cannot be turned into anything unless the car's speed is thereby reduced (by rear wheel effects only)

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
07 Nov 2025, 10:49
saviour stivala wrote:
07 Nov 2025, 07:10
And yes, in 2026, F1 cars will recover energy during cornering by using the MGU-K unit to turn the car's inertia into electricity. And also yes, in 2026 formula 1 engine maps will increase engine revs during harvesting in corners, even with the driver of the throttle, to maximize energy recovery.
I ask, again, how?

The engine maps will control the fuel flow based on various inputs, but they are not allowed to change rpm unless the driver demands more power.

The CPU is also not allowed to automatically change the gears.

Gear changes must be commanded by the driver.

The CPU can reject a shift if it will overrev the engine or will cause the engine to stall, otherwise it has to change gear within a set period after the command (200ms upshift, 300ms downshift).

Also, can you cite your source for this?
Yes, F1 engine maps are used to raise or lower engine revs, primarily by adjusting ignition and fuel injection timing to meet the driver's torque demand, which is a function of engine speed and throttle position. Teams great different maps for various situation, such as using a more aggressive ''qualifying mode'' with higher revs and more power, or a more conservative mode that lowers the maximum revs to manage heat, fuel consumption, and engine life. How engine maps raise or lower engine revs, Torque demand: The driver's throttle input greats a torque demand signal, which is used by 2D torque map that factors in both pedal position and current engine speed (RPM), To meet this torque demand, the ECU uses other maps to precisely control when spark-plug fires (ignition timing) and how much fuel to inject.

michl420
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Location: Austria

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Is there a fuel (kg/l/mj) per race limit?

wuzak
wuzak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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michl420 wrote:
07 Nov 2025, 15:07
Is there a fuel (kg/l/mj) per race limit?
Not yet, as far as I am aware.

karana
karana
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Joined: 06 Dec 2019, 21:13

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
07 Nov 2025, 15:25
michl420 wrote:
07 Nov 2025, 15:07
Is there a fuel (kg/l/mj) per race limit?
Not yet, as far as I am aware.
There most probably won't be one, considering there already is no limit since 2022. (Btw, the 15k rev limit was also removed for 2022)

wuzak
wuzak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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karana wrote:
07 Nov 2025, 17:41
wuzak wrote:
07 Nov 2025, 15:25
michl420 wrote:
07 Nov 2025, 15:07
Is there a fuel (kg/l/mj) per race limit?
Not yet, as far as I am aware.
There most probably won't be one, considering there already is no limit since 2022. (Btw, the 15k rev limit was also removed for 2022)
Hadn't noticed that.

I'm guessing that is because neither limit was being used.

Vappy
Vappy
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Joined: 14 Mar 2024, 20:09

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Fuel flow rate is the limiting factor with the revs never exceeding 13K, right?

gruntguru
gruntguru
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Joined: 21 Feb 2009, 07:43

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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saviour stivala wrote:
07 Nov 2025, 06:59
gruntguru wrote:
07 Nov 2025, 05:07
saviour stivala wrote:
06 Nov 2025, 11:13
I have explained more than once the new for 2026 rules allowing energy recovery when cornering, It seems these recovery when cornering are new, meaning this mode was not there before. Anyhow, once again: New regulations allow for MGU-K to recover energy during cornering, which is a change from previous years, this mode will happen by special maps, which triggers MGU-K into harvesting, even when driver lifts off throttle or is slightly using the brake pedal, these maps will increase engine revs (rpm) during this harvesting mode.
Engine revs cannot be controlled by maps. The driver selects a gear then engine revs will match the road speed for that particular gear.
Yes, engine revs are controlled indirectly by engine maps in formula 1, which are data tables within the ECU that manages how engine produce power in response to driver input.
You can squirm all you like but your original statement (in red) suggests that the ECU can somehow influence the rpm in a corner. WRONG!
- the car will corner at the road speed determined by the driver (on the limit hopefully)
- the car will be in the gear selected by the driver
- the rpm will be absolutely determined by the above two factors - both determined by the driver only.
- If the ECU was permitted to change the power to the wheels and influence the rpm the car would corner at the wrong speed - disastrous!
- This is not permitted by the regulations anyway. The torque to the wheels must be proportional to the driver demand.
je suis charlie