2014-2025 tech for the masses?

[Zynerji]

The starry eyed view that F1 tech has much relevance to road cars is regularly broadcast but has little foundation in fact. Sure F1 may have promoted rarely used tech, but you'll find that somebody somewhere will have tried it on the road before F1 'invented' it. The exception is graphite tubs, and apparently a shaft the length of the block between the two turbines in a turbo. https://www.reddit.com/r/F1Technical/co ... fficiency/ for various disproven claims.

I understand. My point is that the V6 hybrid formula was forced in because the manufacturers said they needed to justify the expense as roadcar R&D.

My point is that was just f***ing lies now that we are far enough into these regs to judge.

[Greg Locock]

" V6 hybrid formula was forced in because the manufacturers said they needed to justify the expense as roadcar R&D" I'm having trouble finding a ref for that.

[Zynerji]

" V6 hybrid formula was forced in because the manufacturers said they needed to justify the expense as roadcar R&D" I'm having trouble finding a ref for that.

### Key References on the Design Intent of 2014 F1 Engine Rules for Road Car R&D

The 2014 Formula 1 engine regulations, which introduced 1.6-liter turbocharged V6 hybrid power units with Energy Recovery Systems (ERS), were explicitly crafted by the FIA and F1 stakeholders to align with automotive industry trends. The primary goals included boosting fuel efficiency (targeting a 35% improvement), promoting hybrid and energy-efficient technologies, and enabling manufacturers to leverage F1 R&D directly for road car advancements. This was intended to attract OEMs (original equipment manufacturers) back to the sport by making engine development "road-relevant" rather than isolated from production vehicles. Below are curated references from credible sources, including direct quotes and context.

#### 1. **Formula1.com Article: "2014 Regulations Already Benefitting Road Car Technology" (April 17, 2014)**
- **Key Quote from Andy Cowell (Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains)**: "The regulations were specifically written to take some of the ideas that are already in the road car world, so downsizing, downspeeding and turbocharging but adding some new, interesting technologies in there such as the electric turbocharger as a specific example and those sort of projects are already being worked on."
- **Context**: Cowell highlighted during a 2014 Chinese Grand Prix press conference how the rules bridged F1 with road car tech like turbocharging and ERS, allowing seamless R&D transfer for efficiency gains.
- **Key Quote from Rob White (Renault)**: "The transfers are not only specific technologies... but also the fundamental alignment of the mission we have. Our challenge now is to race... with the given fuel allocation, which is a very, very similar mission to our road car colleagues who have to use the smallest amount of fuel to get a given mission done."
- **Context**: White emphasized the shared fuel efficiency objectives (e.g., 100kg race fuel limit) between F1 and road cars, fostering collaborative R&D.
- **Key Quote from Yasuhisa Arai (Honda)**: "One of the major reasons for our decision [to return to F1] was the new regulations... The new regulation encourages each power unit supplier to pursue the ultimate combustions efficiency... Thus the challenge is to convert each unit of gasoline into energy and this is expected to be reflected on the huge production mode."
- **Context**: Arai cited the rules' focus on combustion and energy management as a driver for Honda's 2015 F1 return, directly linking it to scalable road car production.
- **Source Link**: [Formula1.com](https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... u3oi4RfKgJ)

#### 2. **RaceFans.net Article: "2014 Rules to Reinvigorate 'Sterile' Engine Technology" (June 30, 2011)**
- **Key Quote from Ross Brawn (Mercedes Team Principal)**: "The new engine creates a fresh opportunity for manufacturers to come in... The engines have been sterilised... We want to get that back in because there’s a lot of exciting technology coming through with engines... We can create relevance, again, for manufacturers and transport."
- **Context**: Spoken at the FOTA Fans Forum, Brawn argued the prior V8 rules stifled innovation; the 2014 hybrids would revive engine R&D with direct road car applicability, attracting OEMs.
- **Key Quote from Martin Whitmarsh (McLaren Team Principal)**: "We have to have the most advanced vehicles in the world... The technologies that we develop have to be relevant, they can’t be completely irrelevant... [We've pursued things] that really weren’t relevant to anyone else."
- **Context**: Whitmarsh advocated for rules ensuring F1 tech (e.g., ERS) transfers to road cars, reducing financial risks for manufacturers via a standardized V6 formula.
- **Source Link**: [RaceFans.net](https://www.racefans.net/2011/06/30/201 ... velopment/)

#### 3. **BBC Sport Article: "Formula 1 Bosses Confirm Engines Will Not Change Until 2014" (June 29, 2011)**
- **Key Statement**: "The aim is to improve the efficiency of F1 engines by as much as 35%, as well as to popularise hybrid and other energy-efficient technologies to help road-car manufacturers."
- **Context**: FIA President Jean Todt and FOTA Chairman Luca di Montezemolo confirmed the rules would "make hybrid technology sexy," accelerating its adoption in road cars—much like Ferrari's 1989 semi-automatic gearbox influenced the industry. This was positioned as a sustainability push with commercial benefits for OEMs.
- **Source Link**: [BBC Sport](https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/13878359)

#### 4. **Academic Paper: "Powertrain Technology Transfer Between F1 and the Automotive Industry" (Combustion Engines Journal, 2018)**
- **Key Statement**: "The 2014 regulations gradually introduced hybrid systems to Formula One and made its technology more relevant to the current production vehicles... [including] significant increase of thermal efficiency, downsizing and advanced hybridisation."
- **Context**: The paper analyzes FIA-driven changes, noting how the rules aligned F1 with automotive trends, enabling transfers like Mercedes' hybrid tech from F1 to models such as the SLS AMG Electric Drive and Project ONE. It credits the regulations for boosting road car relevance post-2009 efficiency mandates.
- **Authors/Source**: Kalociński, T., Rymaniak, Ł., & Fuć, P. (DOI: 10.19206/CE-2018-101). [PDF Link](https://www.combustion-engines.eu/pdf-1 ... =60382.pdf)

These references collectively substantiate that the FIA's 2014 rules were not just a performance reset but a deliberate strategy to subsidize OEM R&D through F1, yielding tangible road car benefits like enhanced hybrids and efficiency—evidenced by manufacturer returns (e.g., Honda) and tech spin-offs. For the full technical regs, see the [FIA's 2014 Document](https://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.n ... _20.07.pdf).

[Greg Locock]

Thanks, very good summary. "some of the ideas that are already in the road car world" bit off message.

[Zynerji]

Thanks, very good summary. "some of the ideas that are already in the road car world" bit off message.

I agree that a sprinkle of this tech is in current road cars, but I would also say those items were in road cars first.

With the end of this Formula, however, we should get a bespoke 2025 tech derivative that can hold a 100K Mile warranty in 2026 models.

[Greg Locock]

I'm sure both the people in the entire world who want one can afford to spend $500million on a car with an F1 style powertrain.

[Zynerji]

I'm sure both the people in the entire world who want one can afford to spend $500million on a car with an F1 style powertrain.

Please inform us on why they would cost $500M to buy?! I'm not asking for full F1 spec, thats disingenuous to insinuate.

Lean burn tech, lower RPM, increased durability over weight saving, chamber geometry and hybrid strategy. Producing 1M units a year of a dumbed down version that even reaches 85% of the F1 numbers would be cheap enough to compete in the mass market.

You seem to think that I'm asking for hand built race engines meant to be run at maximum output, no matter how many times I've said that I'm not.

I don't see why a 3cyl version of these engines are not mass-producible and reach modest power targets with huge fuel efficiencies.

[Greg Locock]

Emissions.

[CMSMJ1]

There has been a slight movement towards 1l 3cyl turbo cars with mild hybrid elements - like the ecoboost Ford motors - but the huge efforts in the MGUH area seem to be wasted for road cars and the MGUK element is also really quite lame isn't it?

The movement to full EV has also taken the impetus out of making high efficiency IC cars,

Part of the move was also acknowledging that 18k rev limited V8s were not road relevant in any way.

[Tommy Cookers]

... 18k rev limited V8s were not road relevant in any way.

except for 2-wheelers apparently

and car GP racing has always intended road road relevance

[CMSMJ1]

... 18k rev limited V8s were not road relevant in any way.

except for 2-wheelers apparently

I have a 35 yr old V4 that does 15k revs I am all into that... but packaging for bikes is the issue isn't it?

18k rev limited v8s are not road relevant and the higest revving road cars are still well under 10k revs and mundane ones were about 8k for the S2000? I am glad that there is a move away from diesels as they ought to be in trucks, trains and big ships...

[PlatinumZealot]

So. Now that the 2014-2025 hybrid engines that the manufacturers REQUIRED in order to use the R&D for road cars are expiring, will we finally get road versions of these 50+% efficiency engines?!?!? Or is it all still just marketing BS?

2 cyl, v-twin (100-300hp/tq) derivative units with a moderately sized battery/mguh/mguk seems like it would be very sought after in consumer vehicles.

Where are they? And why is everyone OK with their demands and reasoning having been contradictorily ignored?

You haven't been looking haven't you?

Mercedes Benz and Porsche came out with electric assisted turbochargers a couple years ago. And alfa Romeo has a TJI V6 engine in a couple models. That tech might be a bit too pricey for the typical grocery getter but they it's out there.

[Ferry]

Mercedes Benz and Porsche came out with electric assisted turbochargers a couple years ago.

Good technical video of the Porsche version here:

[Greg Locock]

We worked on an electrically connected turbo at Lotus in the 80s. In that case I was using it to generate electricity for reasons, Then I learnt some interesting things about turbos and we abandoned it.