2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Sieper]

This is the Redbull Racing thread. McLaren racing thread is where you can argue McLaren. In fact, i would be over there celebrating the wdc. These are by the way, the same posters that are always complaining about Rbr fans.

The fact that you are not there but here trying to dump on Max is only underscribing what you all also know is true.

[Badger]

Of course there is a benefit lol If Mclaren had a clear number one the WDC would be wrapped up, whether he was a little bit behind or Yuki level behind.

Nope. Not with a useless teammate. It's a liability. He never takes points off the competition and has no strategic relevance, it becomes a problem, not a benefit. Yuki could never do what for example Massa did at the end of 2007.

If McLaren had Norris and a bad teammate far behind, that wouldn't only give points to Norris, it would also greatly improve the points yield for Verstappen. This notion that having two competitive teammates in the WDC is a big disadvantage isn't true, it's more complex.

Whichever way you spin it, if Piastri ran at last years levels, the WDC was done a while back and this conversation doesn't happen.

And if Verstappen had a semi-competent teammate the championship might have lasted longer, because they would have been able to take points away from McLaren on certain tracks, and been strategically relevant. My point is that having a useless teammate is worse than having an equal teammate. The best case scenario is having a truly competent teammate that plays second fiddle, but no one has that anymore.

[mwillems]

If Max is getting the most point in his team, it is because he is a step above his teammates.

Norris is a good 8/10 driver, but he is evenly matched with Piastri, and not better than Leclerc or even maybe Russell.If Max had the McLaren this year, he would have won the championship, and not by two points.

It is also because his team are entirely focussed on him, and because the car seemingly can't be driven by others. I appreciate Max is a great driver, but the idea that he got to the end of the season and in the fight was as much because no one in his team takes points of him and because in the orange team they have a car for both drivers and choose not to favour one.

I'm not arguing about what is right or wrong, just making the quite obvious point that Max' talent alone wasn't what got him to the fight at the end of the year, circumstances outside of the car mitigated some of the effects of being in the second fastest car for the first half of the season, unfortunately not enough for when he had the fastest car soon after the break.

Hopefully the RB Engine woes are a smokescreen and there will be more battles, it would genuinely be a shame to see RB suffer in midfield for a few seasons, and it will be very interesting to see if the Mclaren trajectory continues, including in strategy.

The RB car does not have facial recognition features. It is hard to drive, too hard, and the car had a functionnal window which was too small and hard to exploit properly. It is a failure from the team, not Max demands.

You can't hold against Max that he was the only driver able to find pace in this year car. He would have loved to have a car like the McLaren which was extremely fast everywere out of the box with not a single set up problem. Piastri and Norris had the luxury to have the same car that worked well everywhere and they could enter a very easy and sweet spot to developp their confidence when RB was struggling and desperate to make any late set up change.

I think these kind of posts is when it gets frustrating. Max hasn't been attacked or his talent or greatness denigrated, I'm posting simply because for all his skills, it is worth talking about the fact the he got a bit further than his own talent alone could have got him, this year. This in no way detracts from him, but that shouldn't have to be explained.

[Gillian]

It is also because his team are entirely focussed on him, and because the car seemingly can't be driven by others. I appreciate Max is a great driver, but the idea that he got to the end of the season and in the fight was as much because no one in his team takes points of him and because in the orange team they have a car for both drivers and choose not to favour one.

I'm not arguing about what is right or wrong, just making the quite obvious point that Max' talent alone wasn't what got him to the fight at the end of the year, circumstances outside of the car mitigated some of the effects of being in the second fastest car for the first half of the season, unfortunately not enough for when he had the fastest car soon after the break.

Hopefully the RB Engine woes are a smokescreen and there will be more battles, it would genuinely be a shame to see RB suffer in midfield for a few seasons, and it will be very interesting to see if the Mclaren trajectory continues, including in strategy.

The RB car does not have facial recognition features. It is hard to drive, too hard, and the car had a functionnal window which was too small and hard to exploit properly. It is a failure from the team, not Max demands.

You can't hold against Max that he was the only driver able to find pace in this year car. He would have loved to have a car like the McLaren which was extremely fast everywere out of the box with not a single set up problem. Piastri and Norris had the luxury to have the same car that worked well everywhere and they could enter a very easy and sweet spot to developp their confidence when RB was struggling and desperate to make any late set up change.

I think these kind of posts is when it get's frustrating. Max hasn't been attacked or his talent or greatness denigrated, I'm posting simply because for all his skills, it is worth talking about the fact the he got a bit further than his own talent alone could have got him, this year. This in no way detracts from him, but that shouldn't have to be explained.

You got it backwards. With a better teammate he might have been champion right now.

[Matt-A]

I wonder how much Red Bull regret not trying harder to secure Lando Norris. This could have put them on a par with Ferrari with a 5th WDC in a row if he hadn't turned them down.

[mwillems]

The RB car does not have facial recognition features. It is hard to drive, too hard, and the car had a functionnal window which was too small and hard to exploit properly. It is a failure from the team, not Max demands.

You can't hold against Max that he was the only driver able to find pace in this year car. He would have loved to have a car like the McLaren which was extremely fast everywere out of the box with not a single set up problem. Piastri and Norris had the luxury to have the same car that worked well everywhere and they could enter a very easy and sweet spot to developp their confidence when RB was struggling and desperate to make any late set up change.

I think these kind of posts is when it get's frustrating. Max hasn't been attacked or his talent or greatness denigrated, I'm posting simply because for all his skills, it is worth talking about the fact the he got a bit further than his own talent alone could have got him, this year. This in no way detracts from him, but that shouldn't have to be explained.

You got it backwards. With a better teammate he might have been champion right now.

The difference in quality needed to get close to Max and to challenge the Mclarens is a gulf compared to Piastri being reliably 1 tenth slower than he is now and Lando scooping up most wins. The equation has to balance if you want to play with the scales.

[mwillems]

I wonder how much Red Bull regret not trying harder to secure Lando Norris. This could have put them on a par with Ferrari with a 5th WDC in a row if he hadn't turned them down.

It'd be super interesting to see who could get the most out of that car, who's style it would suit that could take it to Max, but that question will never be answered now.

[PierreW]

I wonder how much Red Bull regret not trying harder to secure Lando Norris. This could have put them on a par with Ferrari with a 5th WDC in a row if he hadn't turned them down.

Norris is a good driver, but the differenciating factor was the car. Piastri would have been champion if he did not collapse completely in the last 10 races.

Even if Norris was at RB, McLaren would have had another driver with a top class car on rail, easy to drive and set up.

[Gillian]

I think these kind of posts is when it get's frustrating. Max hasn't been attacked or his talent or greatness denigrated, I'm posting simply because for all his skills, it is worth talking about the fact the he got a bit further than his own talent alone could have got him, this year. This in no way detracts from him, but that shouldn't have to be explained.

You got it backwards. With a better teammate he might have been champion right now.

The difference in quality needed to get close to Max and to challenge the Mclarens is a gulf compared to Piastri being reliably 1 tenth slower than he is now and Lando scooping up most wins.

Not sure what you mean.

I checked the results btw and removed Piastri everywhere he finished in front of Norris and then moved Norris up a position. It gained him about 47 points. It is interesting that in most of those results Verstappen + at least 1 more driver where in front of Norris as well. I'm saying a better teammate to Verstappen would/should have been in that gap as well. That's a 40/50 points swing right there.

[Gillian]

I wonder how much Red Bull regret not trying harder to secure Lando Norris. This could have put them on a par with Ferrari with a 5th WDC in a row if he hadn't turned them down.

It'd be super interesting to see who could get the most out of that car, who's style it would suit that could take it to Max, but that question will never be answered now.

It's like asking if Barrichello would have been able to get closer to Schumacher if the car would have been more to his liking.

[bauc]

Kudos to RBR and Max for not giving up and keep developing this car to the very end of the season, it will be a season to remember for sure.

[mwillems]

You got it backwards. With a better teammate he might have been champion right now.

The difference in quality needed to get close to Max and to challenge the Mclarens is a gulf compared to Piastri being reliably 1 tenth slower than he is now and Lando scooping up most wins.

Not sure what you mean.

I checked the results btw and removed Piastri everywhere he finished in front of Norris and then moved Norris up a position. It gained him about 47 points. It is interesting that in most of those results Verstappen + at least 1 more driver where in front of Norris as well. I'm saying a better teammate to Verstappen would/should have been in that gap as well. That's a 40/50 points swing right there.

I understand, but there's a lot more work to do to get Yuki to challenge Max, not just about driver ability, but also getting a car that can be driven by more than one person. That stuff is pretty serious deficiency in the team, whereas if Piastri was as little as .1 a lap slower, Lando would have walked to the title. That isn't to big up Lando, he's not a brilliant driver, Max is.

But taking favourites and team allegiances aside, circumstances helped mitigate the forces working against Max and helped get him deeper into the championship.

On a seperate note, Max has been a great driver this year, his demeanour both on and off the track has equalled his talent. Don't know if the family life has soothed him or if it is just experience, but this has been his best year in many regards, if not the title.

Hope to see him in an Orange car in 2027

[organic]

What's this about GP potentially stepping down as race engineer

[langedweil]

What's this about GP potentially stepping down as race engineer

Yeah, mate of me just said that as well.
Private thing apparently ?

[AR3-GP]

That stuff is pretty serious deficiency in the team, whereas if Piastri was .1 a lap slower, Lando would have walked to the title.

This kind of statement belittles the depth and breadth of skill that is required to be a good Formula 1 driver. It's not just about pace. I can prove that by pointing you to the many races last year when Max Verstappen defeated Lando Norris despite being 1 tenth or more slower on the race track. I can also point you to the times that even Oscar Piastri defeated Lando Norris despite being slower (Hungary 2024, Monza 2024). So what does your statement really say? Lando's issue is often not pace (though it can be). His greater weaknesses are still lap 1/starts, little mistakes under pressure, and racecraft which is simply a very big hole that a more competent opponent can exploit even if you are faster. Being quick is not enough.