2025 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 05 - 07

[f1316]

yeah, guys like Duchessa are good, of course, but also mainly focused on one team.

Schmidt today said that he will still be around for four races next year, though, so it seems to be more of a semi-retirement. I got that wrong in the earlier statement.

On “The Race” F1 podcast they suggested that Hughes was stepping back from broadcasting but would still be working on print articles. Although not a natural broadcaster I’ll miss his input on the podcast. His more technical analysis of the races was always worth listening to.

Correct, there are two Mark Hughes in the racing world. I got the journalist (written/commentary) mixed up with news about the 2nd Mark Hughes.

I’ll never forget his goal against Oldham in the FA Cup semi final

[AR3-GP]

On “The Race” F1 podcast they suggested that Hughes was stepping back from broadcasting but would still be working on print articles. Although not a natural broadcaster I’ll miss his input on the podcast. His more technical analysis of the races was always worth listening to.

Correct, there are two Mark Hughes in the racing world. I got the journalist (written/commentary) mixed up with news about the 2nd Mark Hughes.

I’ll never forget his goal against Oldham in the FA Cup semi final

[PlatinumZealot]

Have to mention that you have 2 McLaren drivers “taking points off each other” and RBR only having “1 lead driver” posts forget the fact that having 2cars vs 1 means you have significant more strategy options to put one car ahead of the team with 1 driver there.

I don’t think I can recall one instance where Yuki has been ‘used’ to help max strategically overtake the McLarens in the pit strategy. (And vice versa - if it ever happens)
I think the above can be said for the McLaren strategy too. Aside from AD25 where they split strategies I can’t recall of one strategic plan that helped one driver fight Max off. RBR always led the strategy and it was either a case of McLaren pitting a lap behind Max, or extending the stint.


On other notes. I hope whatever is happening with GP and his clear upset on the pit wall (or things at home with him missing a few weekends) is nothing too bad. Fingers crossed it was just pure emotion for the title fight (which should never have been).

Correct. If there was a number one driver at McLaren the championship would have been done and dusted from race 19 or 20.

[Sieper]

You can be a clear number one driver, but you must still manage to win the races. Norris simply wasn’t good enough for big chunks of the season to defeat Piastri. That is not number 1 status. That is simply not being as consistently good as Max always is. Something you will never admit. It seems your live work to argue against it. Which is precisely why everyone here understands that you too see it. Why Else go through these lengths.

[Quantum]

Correct. If there was a number one driver at McLaren the championship would have been done and dusted from race 19 or 20.

100%

Especially when you consider that a number 2 like Yuki would not be banging wheels with Verstappen as Lando and Piastri did.
Or have to accommodate one driver over another depending on race position. Or have design directions that would help both drivers. It simply isn't even a metric over at Red Bull.
Competition within Red Bull is not a thing, and when it becomes a thing like it did in 2014 at Red Bull... Sebastian Vettels stock crashed when a journeyman Ricciardo beat him.
These fundamentals matter hugely.

[aMessageToCharlie]

Correct. If there was a number one driver at McLaren the championship would have been done and dusted from race 19 or 20.

100%

Especially when you consider that a number 2 like Yuki would not be banging wheels with Verstappen as Lando and Piastri did.
Or have to accommodate one driver over another depending on race position. Or have design directions that would help both drivers. It simply isn't even a metric over at Red Bull.
Competition within Red Bull is not a thing, and when it becomes a thing like it did in 2014 at Red Bull... Sebastian Vettels stock crashed when a journeyman Ricciardo beat him.
These fundamentals matter hugely.

You're refuting your own argument in regards to the RBR team situation.

Correct, they brought on a fast up-and-comer and let them fight instead of protecting their 4x WDC no.1 driver.

Then they kept bringing in fresh meat in the form of their most promising young talent. Albon and Gasly are so good that they still are well regarded drivers who firmly established themselves in F1.

When they didn't deliver the expected results, they brought in Perez from the outside, who was very hyped at the time and was well known to fight tooth and nail against his team mates, with multiple team internal collosions on his record. Not exactly who you would choose if you were looking for a no.2 to protect your star.

Personally, I would have prefered to see all of Perez, Bottas and Raikkönen be replaced years earlier and I would like to see Piastri in a RBR seat right now, but you can't blame RBR for promiting their strongest young drivers. That is exactly what the program is there for.

[basti313]

Correct. If there was a number one driver at McLaren the championship would have been done and dusted from race 19 or 20.

100%

Especially when you consider that a number 2 like Yuki ....

No, this is wrong.
Here is a nice calculation on these topics: https://www.motorsport-total.com/formel ... e-25121012
Norris with a Yuki next to him would have finished just 8 points ahead of Verstappen. That being said, there are no tactical advantages or race developments in the calculation like loosing Spa on the first straight.

What the unfortunately do not calculate is the reasonable approach to make Piastri the Nr1 after Spa. That would have worked by just three points if they would have swapped the positions every time they had the chance at the end of the race. Most likely that would not have worked out. Even worse if they would have decided a Nr1 status for Pia when he had the biggest lead, that would have ended in Ver being WDC.

You're refuting your own argument in regards to the RBR team situation.

Yes. Nice summary. You perfectly show the issue...whenever there was a chance to race they could race in RBR and truly bang wheel. What was not allowed at McL by the way. The topic is just, that the Nr2 drivers at RedBull made themselves Nr2 drivers. Or was Webber not allowed to be WDC in 2010? Was this the reason for him doing a Piastri?

[Quantum]

You're refuting your own argument in regards to the RBR team situation.

I'm really not.

When viewed outside of the RBR/Max supporting prism, you cannot reasonably suggest that all those "promising" young talents failed on merit.

They failed systemically.

Like suddenly Lawson learnt how to drive again when moving from RBR to Racing Bulls. And Yuki suddenly forgot to drive moving the other way. Or how Perez went off the rails the moment Red Bull started getting heat from McLaren.
The system ordains that the number 1 gets the lions share of everything, from updates to strategy to the allocation of resources. It's permissible. It's no slight on either Max or RBR, it's clearly and unequivocally the way they go about their business.

McLaren do not. And that's a built in advantage to any dedicated Numero uno driver getting the benefit of that level of support. Especially in a Budget cap sensitive formula.


To emphasis the point.... Perez in the first 5 races of 2024 got 4 podiums(3 x 2nd and 1x 3rd) and a 5th. And second in the standings 25 points behind Max and 9 ahead of Leclerc.
Round 6 McLaren trounce Red Bull with Perez coming in 4th.

That's the last we would see of Perez in the top 5 ever again at RBR.

That is not coincidental. It also doesn't rely on hypothesis of human superpowers or drivers forgetting to drive.
It's strategic and systemic.

[aMessageToCharlie]

You're refuting your own argument in regards to the RBR team situation.

I'm really not.

When viewed outside of the RBR/Max supporting prism, you cannot reasonably suggest that all those "promising" young talents failed on merit.

They failed systemically.

Like suddenly Lawson learnt how to drive again when moving from RBR to Racing Bulls. And Yuki suddenly forgot to drive moving the other way. Or how Perez went off the rails the moment Red Bull started getting heat from McLaren.
The system ordains that the number 1 gets the lions share of everything, from updates to strategy to the allocation of resources. It's permissible. It's no slight on either Max or RBR, it's clearly and unequivocally the way they go about their business.

McLaren do not. And that's a built in advantage to any dedicated Numero uno driver getting the benefit of that level of support. Especially in a Budget cap sensitive formula.


To emphasis the point.... Perez in the first 5 races of 2024 got 4 podiums(3 x 2nd and 1x 3rd) and a 5th. And second in the standings 25 points behind Max and 9 ahead of Leclerc.
Round 6 McLaren trounce Red Bull with Perez coming in 4th.

That's the last we would see of Perez in the top 5 ever again at RBR.

That is not coincidental. It also doesn't rely on hypothesis of human superpowers or drivers forgetting to drive.
It's strategic and systemic.

Please watch the inverview with Alex Albon where he refutes these claims and explains exactly why and how he failed to perform on Verstappen's level. There is no need to make stuff up when you can get it from the horse's mouth.

[Quantum]

Please watch the inverview with Alex Albon where he refutes these claims and explains exactly why and how he failed to perform on Verstappen's level. There is no need to make stuff up when you can get it from the horse's mouth.

The car was optimised to suit Max. Albon said it himself.
Cherry picking opinions from a guy that drove with Max 5 years ago in a different rule set AND circumstance is not a fact nor is it relevant.
If there was no cherry picking, and we had relevance... we could include Perez quotes:

“Instead of complaining about them or saying I needed more experienced people, I told myself: ‘This is what I have, so I’m going to focus on it’

.He said on his first meeting with team boss Christian Horner, he was told Red Bull “runs two cars because we have to” and “we’d be happy just racing with Max”.

In response, Perez - who said that’s when he started to understand how Red Bull worked - said: “Well, now you can run with two cars - hire me.”

I mean...there's evidence to back up what Perez is saying.

What is a fact is that Perez finished the WDC 3rd in 2022, 3 points off 2nd.
Perez finished 2nd in 2023.
2024 Perez is in 2nd after race 6 never gets to finish inside the top 5 for the next 18 races finishing a laughable 8th.

The moment the Red Bull gets challenged, Perez conveniently forgets to drive and we must pull out Albon quotes about his time with Max in non championship winning 2019 and 2020?

[aMessageToCharlie]

Please watch the inverview with Alex Albon where he refutes these claims and explains exactly why and how he failed to perform on Verstappen's level. There is no need to make stuff up when you can get it from the horse's mouth.

The car was optimised to suit Max. Albon said it himself.
Cherry picking opinions from a guy that drove with Max 5 years ago in a different rule set AND circumstance is not a fact nor is it relevant.
If there was no cherry picking, and we had relevance... we could include Perez quotes:

“Instead of complaining about them or saying I needed more experienced people, I told myself: ‘This is what I have, so I’m going to focus on it’

.He said on his first meeting with team boss Christian Horner, he was told Red Bull “runs two cars because we have to” and “we’d be happy just racing with Max”.

In response, Perez - who said that’s when he started to understand how Red Bull worked - said: “Well, now you can run with two cars - hire me.”

I mean...there's evidence to back up what Perez is saying.

What is a fact is that Perez finished the WDC 3rd in 2022, 3 points off 2nd.
Perez finished 2nd in 2023.
2024 Perez is in 2nd after race 6 never gets to finish inside the top 5 for the next 18 races finishing a laughable 8th.

The moment the Red Bull gets challenged, Perez conveniently forgets to drive and we must pull out Albon quotes about his time with Max in non championship winning 2019 and 2020?

Ah, come on. Now you're really doing mental acrobatics. If anyone can give a trusted statement of what its like to be Verstappen's team mate in RBR, it's Albon. He got axed by the team, had a secure seat with Williams and every reason to blame the team and blow the whistle if there were anything to it. But he told the exact opposite because it's the truth. You want to disregard the best first hand insider knowlege that he explained at lenght in an inverview to refute this very claim just because it doesn't fit your subjective opinion.

The reason for the disrepancy in Perez' performance between seasons is obvious for anyone to see: in 2022 and 2023 RBR had a beast of a car and they could afford to take the edge of. Perez didnt have to get the last drop out of the car to finish on the podium easily. Just like Bottas in the Merc at the time or even the Mclaren drivers this year.

In 2024 their car dropped of massively and they had to squeeze out performance by setting it up on the nose and he couldn't cope with it. Just like Tsunoda this year.