2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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venkyhere
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Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Farnborough wrote:
20 Dec 2025, 09:58
The current (up to this year) has been closing inlet valve early, substantially before bdc to my understanding, to enhance a dynamic compression ratio. That over and above the stated geometrical calculation.

A std and accepted measurement normally would involve the volume swept by piston from the bottom of its stroke up until it reached tdc, with calculation of remaining volume now in combustion chamber against that swept volume. That’s conventional static/geometry calculation to give a design specification.
By closing the inlet valve early, and before the piston has reached the bottom of it's stroke, while pressurising the cylinder from turbo input to above atmospheric during that phase, this can include that cylinder volume before the piston reaches the bottom of its stroke on intake to give a dynamic compression ratio above the static specification.

That's my understanding of what they have done up until now. Its no secret, in other words.

Pat Symonds, I believe, gave a good lecture on this topic with lucid discussion points about what they are doing.
closing the inlet before BDC (say 4 o clock instead of 6 o clock) :
- isn't this expanding the charge before BDC, so how can the numerator in the CR calculation 'dynamically' have the 4 o clock to 6 o clock volume 'added' to the standard stroke (6 o clock to 12 o clock) ? Shouldnt it be subtracted instead, because not only is the gas expanding from 4 to 6, it also means less gas is getting ingested by closing inlets early. I will read up more on this, but at the outset, it doesn't sound intuitive.

Nevertheless, going back to static/standard definition of CR,
CR(cold) = ((1600/6) + x ))/x = 16 ; => x=17.778 cc
CR(hot) = ((1600/6) + y ))/y = 18 ; => y=15.686 cc
Irrespective of the shape of the 'head' of the compression chamber, this signifies a thin slice (vol x-y = 2.092cc) getting removed from somewhere near one of the ends of a cucumber. With a bore dia of 80mm (defined in the spec) means this cucumber slice is 0.416mm thick.

Can't they design a piston head with exotic materials that expands by 0.416mm when operating at optimal engine temp v/s when it's cold ? My guess is that such a thing already exists (for all its worth, the CR for the 2014 to 2025 era might be exceeding 18)

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AR3-GP
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Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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"We hear good things about the engine, but what is good? I don't know, what's the reference? So let's wait and see.
-Raymond Vermeulen (Max’s manager)
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/verstapp ... is-unknown
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organic
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Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Oh that's good. It'll be crazy if red bull end up with a good engine despite all the worries. One last gift from Horner/marko

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AR3-GP
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Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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EvH has done an interesting interview with Oliver Mintzlaff about the changes at RBR: https://archive.is/Z6CgM
Red Bull boss Oliver Mintzlaff speaks in exclusive interview: this is how he wants to keep Max Verstappen on board forever
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f1isgood
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Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Interesting justification for many decisions and of course Mintzlaff was wowed by the cost of the engine project. Hope it's good next year!

Also, clearly EvH is Red Bull Austria's mouthpiece at this point.
Call a spade, a spade.

Badger
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Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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f1isgood wrote:
21 Dec 2025, 18:44
Interesting justification for many decisions and of course Mintzlaff was wowed by the cost of the engine project. Hope it's good next year!

Also, clearly EvH is Red Bull Austria's mouthpiece at this point.
He's Verstappen's mouthpiece, and Verstappen is on good terms with RB Austria.

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lio007
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Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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It's mentioned quite often that Red Bull invested a lot in the RB21, also Laurent Mekies said it comes at a cost.
But I'd say RBR never believed it would be so close at the end and just focussed on the tool chain and procedures to validate and gain confidence. I can't believe they've not allocated a reasonable amount of resources to RB22.

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FW17
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Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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lio007 wrote:
22 Dec 2025, 12:23
It's mentioned quite often that Red Bull invested a lot in the RB21, also Laurent Mekies said it comes at a cost.
But I'd say RBR never believed it would be so close at the end and just focussed on the tool chain and procedures to validate and gain confidence. I can't believe they've not allocated a reasonable amount of resources to RB22.
Same can be said about the RB16B, RB18 was a standout.

Valeo
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Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Most changes were floor and front wing iterations.
It's not like they brought huge upgrade packages, which changed the surface of the car.
I'd say the other top 3 teams invested much more in that aspect for their 2025 car.

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AR3-GP
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Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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lio007 wrote:
22 Dec 2025, 12:23
It's mentioned quite often that Red Bull invested a lot in the RB21, also Laurent Mekies said it comes at a cost.
But I'd say RBR never believed it would be so close at the end and just focussed on the tool chain and procedures to validate and gain confidence. I can't believe they've not allocated a reasonable amount of resources to RB22.
For Jan - Jun 2025, Red Bull were allocated 10% more aerodynamic resources than the leading team (Mclaren). For July - Dec 2025, Red Bull were allocated 15% more aerodynamic resources than the leading team (Mclaren). In the first half of 2026, Red bull will have 10% more again.

The updates in the second half of the year were CFD updates. The RB21 was not in the windtunnel. Also, none of this has any impact on the PU development. Of course any time spent on 2025 is time that you aren't spending on 2026, but Red Bull were allocated more resources from the start.
Last edited by AR3-GP on 22 Dec 2025, 13:13, edited 1 time in total.
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ME4ME
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Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
21 Dec 2025, 10:37
EvH has done an interesting interview with Oliver Mintzlaff about the changes at RBR: https://archive.is/Z6CgM
Red Bull boss Oliver Mintzlaff speaks in exclusive interview: this is how he wants to keep Max Verstappen on board forever
Thanks for sharing. Sounds very much like Mintzslaff is quite appreciative of Horner and not blind to the fact that Marko was/is a loose cannon. I think his assessment if fair enough. I just hope, like you pointed out earlier, that Mintzlaff and the other shareholders can have the patience to see out the initial year(s) of PU struggles and don't pull the plugg prematurly. So far every bit of info and rumours sound positive though, and it does seem they have very good people. As long as Ford can pay a large part of the bill, there is potential for a solid view years up until 2030.

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AR3-GP
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Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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ME4ME wrote:
22 Dec 2025, 13:13
AR3-GP wrote:
21 Dec 2025, 10:37
EvH has done an interesting interview with Oliver Mintzlaff about the changes at RBR: https://archive.is/Z6CgM
Red Bull boss Oliver Mintzlaff speaks in exclusive interview: this is how he wants to keep Max Verstappen on board forever
Thanks for sharing. Sounds very much like Mintzslaff is quite appreciative of Horner and not blind to the fact that Marko was/is a loose cannon. I think his assessment if fair enough. I just hope, like you pointed out earlier, that Mintzlaff and the other shareholders can have the patience to see out the initial year(s) of PU struggles and don't pull the plugg prematurly. So far every bit of info and rumours sound positive though, and it does seem they have very good people. As long as Ford can pay a large part of the bill, there is potential for a solid view years up until 2030.
I also got a better sense of Mintzlaff. He seems committed to F1. Red Bull extended the contract for the Austrian GP to 2041. Mintzlaff also said they think they can keep Max at Red Bull forever, and we know what the requirements are for that to happen. So Red Bull appear to be all in on these projects. No expense spared.
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ME4ME
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Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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FW17 wrote:
22 Dec 2025, 12:25
Same can be said about the RB16B, RB18 was a standout.
I disagree with RB18 being a standout. I thought it was quite an average car, flattered by lack of competition. Mercedes was nowhere and struggled badly with bounching and Ferrari got shot in the foot by the technical directive, as well as Ferrari being Ferrari strategically, and Leclerc making some errors. The RB18 always was a diamond in the rough; good foundation but lacking refinement. Probably because of RB16B. It was an overweight understeering monster. Still remember it being a cruise ship that year in Imola. It was laughable.

I doubt an "RB18" kind of car will cut it against Mercedes and Mclaren in 2026.

f1isgood
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Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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ME4ME wrote:
22 Dec 2025, 13:20
FW17 wrote:
22 Dec 2025, 12:25
Same can be said about the RB16B, RB18 was a standout.
I disagree with RB18 being a standout. I thought it was quite an average car, flattered by lack of competition. Mercedes was nowhere and struggled badly with bounching and Ferrari got shot in the foot by the technical directive, as well as Ferrari being Ferrari strategically, and Leclerc making some errors. The RB18 always was a diamond in the rough; good foundation but lacking refinement. Probably because of RB16B. It was an overweight understeering monster. Still remember it being a cruise ship that year in Imola. It was laughable.

I doubt an "RB18" kind of car will cut it against Mercedes and Mclaren in 2026.
The RB18 was an excellent car by every means. The car was absolutely dominant in Imola, not sure what you mean by cruise ship. The race pace of that car was absolutely insane. It won 17 races lol. Ferrari were already outdeveloped by Red Bull before the TD. The TD killed Ferrari from fighting for more wins but only Red Bull nailed the regulations spot on.

If Mercedes and Ferrari couldn't understand the regulations, that simply means Red Bull did a fantastic job in a complex rule set.


There is no reason to believe Mercedes will be better than others in chassis design next year. McLaren I have very good reason to believe but what did Mercedes show? They were ahead of Red Bull last year and couldn't even stay ahead. Red Bull effectively out developed them and Ferrari after being behind on the chassis side of things with teh RB20. I think McLaren will be the team to beat as long as Mercedes engine isn't too bad.
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euv2
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Re: 2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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lio007 wrote:
22 Dec 2025, 12:23
It's mentioned quite often that Red Bull invested a lot in the RB21, also Laurent Mekies said it comes at a cost.
But I'd say RBR never believed it would be so close at the end and just focussed on the tool chain and procedures to validate and gain confidence. I can't believe they've not allocated a reasonable amount of resources to RB22.
Mekies is just trying to reduce expectations, if the car is a front runner, he ends up looking like a genius and his focus on fixing correlation is vindicated.

Speaking of late in season development, I think even Mercedes brought a new front wing just before Red bull brought their last floor update in Mexico.

Accounting for the respective WT time and CFD runs, it wouldn't be crazy to suggest that MCL, MERC and RBR all have used similar amount of dev time on the new car, only FER might have a slight advantage.

Another thing to note is, MCL, MERC and FER all brought suspension updates/revisions this season, whilst Red bull did not, with FER and MERC being major reworks. So, that is one part of the car development team that free for Red bull.