2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
venkyhere
30
Joined: 10 Feb 2024, 06:17

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

BorisTheBlade wrote:
29 Dec 2025, 14:54
What do you think about all of this? Is the approach flawed in any way? Would you like some other tracks / laps to be processed this way?
Appreciate your effort =D>
Since this a fastest lap attempt, battery is fully drained, similar to a quali lap. What would be more informative (and the 'hot potato' in this thread) is a typical race lap in the middle of a stint, where the driver has a target laptime and is preserving the tyres & battery SoC. Would like to see the same plot (same start and end locations as you've already done) for such a lap (pick a lap which is in the middle of a 4-5 lap cluster with hardly 1-2 tenths variance across them) and compare it with the above plot which you have already prepared. Also, if possible, a direct comparison of this fastest race lap with the quali lap to see whether the charge-discharge slopes are any different.
Also, if possible ( :D ) include the engine rpm & gear choice in the trace, it would be informative to check whether the changes in slope during the recharge phase is due to the gear changes or due to the algorithm itself
Last edited by venkyhere on 30 Dec 2025, 04:34, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
venkyhere
30
Joined: 10 Feb 2024, 06:17

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

michl420 wrote:
29 Dec 2025, 12:08
A engine that have 1/3 less power need to run 1/3 longer to have the same output.
Why ? It's 1/3 less 'peak power', and what did you mean by 'same output' ?

User avatar
De Wet
15
Joined: 03 Jan 2024, 13:32

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post


michl420
michl420
24
Joined: 18 Apr 2010, 17:08
Location: Austria

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

venkyhere wrote:
30 Dec 2025, 04:29
michl420 wrote:
29 Dec 2025, 12:08
A engine that have 1/3 less power need to run 1/3 longer to have the same output.
Why ? It's 1/3 less 'peak power', and what did you mean by 'same output' ?
A 100 hp engine need to run 2h to have the same output (work) that a 200 hp engine has in 1h.

vorticism
vorticism
373
Joined: 01 Mar 2022, 20:20
Location: YooEssay

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

venkyhere wrote:
29 Dec 2025, 03:20
I think it will be very difficult to have an implementation where the the A-pedal input from driver 'does not linearly (atleast roughly) translate' to the operating point of the ICE. The driver relies on NVH to 'tune' himself to the power delivery of the car, and operating the ICE near peak power when throttle isn't 100% pressed (or even 0 pressed) is going to 'interfere' with the driving. This line of thought is what led me to think that % duration (in a race stint lap) of ICE operating near peak isn't going to change drastically, w.r.t previous hybrid era - instead of 'peaky' differences between deployment/recharge phases within a lap, the energy management would be more 'evenly spread' over a lap, just that the battery would claim a larger chunk of ICE output 'all the time'.
The part-demand (variable ICE output during variable PU output demand) regime seems important as far as feel goes. During the EBD days the drivers got used to off- and part-throttle idiosyncrasy, with the engine making noise when it shouldn't. Now with the MGUK variably arresting the engine, a similar situation presents: the ICE is making noise when it shouldn't. If the PU output rise and fall, including the engine braking feel, is dialed in, it may feel to the driver not too unusual. "Hot-blowing" of the MGUK at partial PU output demand.
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

User avatar
motobaleno
11
Joined: 31 Mar 2011, 13:58

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-fe ... /10787246/

steel head for Ferrari?
Beyond the specific news
the trade off steel vs alloy head could put in a different light the variable CR saga.
With a steel head is more diffcult to control knocking and maybe not useful to seek for increased CR

wuzak
wuzak
518
Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

motobaleno wrote:
30 Dec 2025, 18:57
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-fe ... /10787246/

steel head for Ferrari?
Beyond the specific news
the trade off steel vs alloy head could put in a different light the variable CR saga.
With a steel head is more diffcult to control knocking and maybe not useful to seek for increased CR
Steel is heavier than aluminum, but it allows for testing pressures and temperatures in the combustion chamber that have never been reached before, which should provide an advantage given that the PU in the next championship will have to weigh 30 kg more (150 kg compared to this year's).
The bolded part is incorrect.

The 2026 PU (ICE and MGUK) is 1kg less than the 2025 PU (ICE, MGUK and MGUH).

The rules have a minimum CoG requirement, so if the steel head can be made within the weight and CoG limits it may provide advantages in other areas.

User avatar
venkyhere
30
Joined: 10 Feb 2024, 06:17

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

michl420 wrote:
30 Dec 2025, 16:31
venkyhere wrote:
30 Dec 2025, 04:29
michl420 wrote:
29 Dec 2025, 12:08
A engine that have 1/3 less power need to run 1/3 longer to have the same output.
Why ? It's 1/3 less 'peak power', and what did you mean by 'same output' ?
A 100 hp engine need to run 2h to have the same output (work) that a 200 hp engine has in 1h.
Lets continue with this same simple analogy you have brought up
a) Let's say the 200hp engine produces an average of 150hp over a single 1 hour lap.
b) Let's say the 100hp engine produces an average of 75hp over a single 2 hour lap.
Assuming that the ultimate 'same output' / 'work' (as you say) is 200hp-hours in both cases, and that there is a 'hybrid battery' to provide the extra energy. So it will be a case of attaching a 50hp-hour battery in case (a) and a 25hp-hour battery for case (b). So far everything seems hunky dory. We have (150+50)*1 = (75+25)*2 = 200hp-hours = work. However, the battery isn't 'free', it has to be recharged, which automatically means we can't maintain the 200hp-hours total work as it is, since some of the engine output will be 'taxed' for recharging. Let's say this new 'total work' is going to be X (X < 200hp-h). We also have the restriction that every continuous 1 hour or 2 hour chunk has to maintain the same X output (a race stint) ; which in turn means that whatever is eaten from the battery has to be put back into it, over the same 1hr/2hr chunk. That again means, in plain english - the contribution from the hybrid battery towards 'total work' is 0, zilch. It can only 'assist' in terms of 'rate of work', ie , discharge-assist and recharge-handicap, but doesn't contribute anything to X at all. All the X has to come from the engine/fuel. Reminder - this is for a 'race stint' with 1hr/2hr laps, not a qualifying 1hr/2hr lap where full discharge* of battery (battery is indeed 'free' for quali) is possible. So for race we have X,X,X... and for qualifying we have a single 200hp-hr. That statement I made before, about bringing in a hybrid battery for 'extra energy' applies only in the quali scenario, the battery doesn't provide any energy in the race scenario.

Now we come to the elephant in the room, for the X,X,X.... case.
Can we allow case(b) to last 2 hours instead of 1 hour for case (a) ? No. Laptimes would be stupidly slow.
So the theory that 'running duration' can be 'scaled equally' as much as the peak power is reduced by, to 'compensate' for the energy needs, doesn't apply here. let's say we operate the 100hp engine super-aggressively, revving crazily all the time with much shorter gearing, to produce an average of 90hp per lap (to provide some bridging), it would still end up being 1h40m lap, instead of the 1h lap with the 200hp engine.

Coming to the real world,
Can you see the problem now ? Reducing the peak power of the ICE from 800hp to 500hp automatically means (regardless of what the battery system or the battery capacity or the battery charge/discharge rate is) that even despite a super aggressive engine operating point with the 500hp ICE, 'race stint laptime' would increase like crazy (unless the weight/drag reduction balances it out, which I don't think it will), because ultimately, the 'energy' for the race, has to come from the fuel. We can ignore the 'full charged battery' from the starting grid, since the battery size has to be bigger than the car, for it to make a 'dent' on the 'total race energy' contribution from the fuel.


* being very optimistic, since bringing in recharge rate from the braking/coasting/long-straights even for a quali lap, is going to needlessly complicate the simplistic picture, hence also staying away from things like discharge/recharge efficiency as well.

vorticism
vorticism
373
Joined: 01 Mar 2022, 20:20
Location: YooEssay

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

motobaleno wrote:
30 Dec 2025, 18:57
With a steel head is more diffcult to control knocking and maybe not useful to seek for increased CR
Context dependent. Steel is around one-fourth as thermally conductive as aluminum, but if the CC walls can be made f.e. one-third as thick then the latency between heating and cooling is reduced and also the total surface area exposed to coolant will increase compared to an Al head. If the head is forged then you could achieve wall thicknesses similar to the piston crown, or thinner. Forged steel + no reciprocating forces + full perimeter support + the benefit of liquid cooling that the piston does not have, should allow for some very thin heads. An unturned stone?

That article makes it sound like a steel head was developed in parallel for:
-Durability. Four engines per season. (with questionable results)
-Higher cylinder pressures (odd considering reduced boost & fuel, unless he meant the prev regs)
-Not for CR trickery (at least, it’s not mentioned)

If it relates to CR tricky:

Along with a steel block, with the goal being to achieve a relatively dimensionally stable block & head which a necessarily hotter conrod & piston could thermally expand into, to achieve an illegal compression ratio that cannot be confirmed exists except for by inference. If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? None of this will be a secret to the other engine designers (I hope, at this level and budget) so if this approach is beneficial then everyone will show up with steel engines, having mutually agreed to keep the wording of the regulations as-is so that everyone can break the rule in unison. It would be upon the FIA to change the wording if they are unhappy with an engine arrangement that they know unavoidably breaks the rule. No one would want to lose R&D money on it, so, perhaps the FIA would allow it for one year before demanding that only aluminum be used for the block & heads.

As for higher thermal limits:

A section of a steel head could be made purposely thick to enhance convection latency so that a portion of the CC wall remains hot and acts like a hot bulb or glow plug in order to initiate ignitiion in addition to what the spark plug can supply. Only one spark is permitted per cycle (or maybe stroke, depending on the FIA’s unspoken definition of ‘cycle’ which is officially undefined), so any additional ignition features might be handy. F.e. a thin flange around the perimieter of the CC could remain always hot and ensure combustion at the periphery. These sort of tricks could not be done with Al, as it would melt. Might also be difficult to achieve in steel if it erodes too much during such opps.

If it relates to higher CR potential:

With less air, fuel, and in-cylinder compression available, only one spark, and no turbocompounding, where do you have left to go to optimize thermal & operating efficiency? Further development of combustion. There are numerous concepts which have been in developmen over the past couple of decades: HCCI, SPCCI, GDCI/PPC.

However. All of these could have been pursued in the previous regs. If new combustion concepts are being developed now and were not being developed before, a question would be: why? I have half a thought to suggest that turbocompounding as it existed may have been preventing new combustion development. If combustion and cycle efficiency are improved there will be less energy in the exhaust, yet a turbocompound needs waste heat & pressure to recuperatte--that’s the point of its existence, to return it to the ICE. In the new regs there is only a familiar TC, which could be though of as a pneumatically linked turbocompound (credit Tommy Cookers for that gem of a metaphor, and such a line of thought might help devise ways of managing lag in lieu of anti-lag), but its primary purpose is to convert exhaust energy into compressor work, and the total amount of work required to achieve necessary boost will reduce as combustion efficiency is improved. Correct?

Regardless, where can combustion concepts still go? Is it at all possible that peak cylinder pressure could be as high or higher in these regs (one of the vague suggestions in the article) despite there being less air and fuel in the cylinder and less geo compression. Maybe if further spark advancement, detonation or knock are put to use. With the total peak cylinder pressure across the piston/CC face may or may not be higher, but local to detonation fronts it will be, which is where the greater durability of steel could come into play.
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

wuzak
wuzak
518
Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

vorticism wrote:
31 Dec 2025, 18:24
Context dependent. Steel is around one-fourth as thermally conductive as aluminum, but if the CC walls can be made f.e. one-third as thick then the latency between heating and cooling is reduced and also the total surface area exposed to coolant will increase compared to an Al head. If the head is forged then you could achieve wall thicknesses similar to the piston crown, or thinner. Forged steel + no reciprocating forces + full perimeter support + the benefit of liquid cooling that the piston does not have, should allow for some very thin heads. An unturned stone?
Won't the goal be to minimise the loss of heat to coolant?

vorticism
vorticism
373
Joined: 01 Mar 2022, 20:20
Location: YooEssay

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Depends on what the goal is.
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

User avatar
Juzh
161
Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Cold Fussion wrote:
29 Dec 2025, 00:24
gruntguru wrote:
27 Dec 2025, 01:05
Many are predicting more than 375 KW, putting peak PU output greater than 2025 in a lighter, more slippery car. These cars will accelerate harder and have a higher top speed. High speed cornering will be slower.
Isn't it more likely that top speed will be around ~345 km/h (the mgu-k cut off speed)? To much higher than that they will need to be substantially lower drag to makeup for the ~1/3rd power loss vs 2025 (I don't know what the projections are for the drag reduction in the straight line mode vs 2025 in DRS).
Current gen cars without mgu-k and drs were stuck at about 280-290 kmh. 2026 gen without mgu-k will drop like a stone, even with reduced drag.

diffuser wrote:
25 Dec 2025, 18:04
I can't remember a regulation change that had the newer regulation faster than the old regulation. Part of reg change has always been to slow cars down only to have the speed return by endless upgrades over the years in the new reg.
2016 --> 2017

wuzak
wuzak
518
Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

vorticism wrote:
31 Dec 2025, 20:06
Depends on what the goal is.
Maximum efficiency/power is the goal.

If the heat lost to coolant is reduced, there is more energy left to turn the crankshaft.

User avatar
diffuser
252
Joined: 07 Sep 2012, 13:55
Location: Montreal

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

wuzak wrote:
01 Jan 2026, 03:08
vorticism wrote:
31 Dec 2025, 20:06
Depends on what the goal is.
Maximum efficiency/power is the goal.

If the heat lost to coolant is reduced, there is more energy left to turn the crankshaft.
I do not fully understand the statement regarding heat loss. The coolant system in an internal combustion engine is designed to prevent overheating by maintaining the engine below a maximum operating temperature. While I understand that heat is a form of energy, it is unclear to me how residual heat within the cylinder contributes to power generation. In practice, the intake air is cooled after leaving the compressor and prior to entering the cylinder. Additionally, one of the motivations for using direct injection is its ability to maintain lower fuel temperatures. Lower temperatures of the intake charge and engine components increase charge density, improve compressibility, and enable greater expansion during combustion. Maybe you mean fuel that is burned that turns into heat is energy lost ?

User avatar
diffuser
252
Joined: 07 Sep 2012, 13:55
Location: Montreal

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Juzh wrote:
31 Dec 2025, 23:00
Cold Fussion wrote:
29 Dec 2025, 00:24
gruntguru wrote:
27 Dec 2025, 01:05
Many are predicting more than 375 KW, putting peak PU output greater than 2025 in a lighter, more slippery car. These cars will accelerate harder and have a higher top speed. High speed cornering will be slower.
Isn't it more likely that top speed will be around ~345 km/h (the mgu-k cut off speed)? To much higher than that they will need to be substantially lower drag to makeup for the ~1/3rd power loss vs 2025 (I don't know what the projections are for the drag reduction in the straight line mode vs 2025 in DRS).
Current gen cars without mgu-k and drs were stuck at about 280-290 kmh. 2026 gen without mgu-k will drop like a stone, even with reduced drag.

diffuser wrote:
25 Dec 2025, 18:04
I can't remember a regulation change that had the newer regulation faster than the old regulation. Part of reg change has always been to slow cars down only to have the speed return by endless upgrades over the years in the new reg.
2016 --> 2017
Do we really call those new regs? They were more like tweaks to the 2014 implementation? no? The 2014 regs made the cars too slow so the 2017 was to speed them back up. Technically you're right though... THX.