Concept power units from 2030

[Tommy Cookers]

..... This is supposed to be the pinnacle of motor racing. Not the pinnacle of environmental gimmicks.
..... With this kind of talk , there could be a split in F1

the environmental gimmicks are built-in to our present F1 'pinnacle'
so we can be saved from (bogus) 'waste' by the gallant 'recovery knight' named ERS

but ....
if the tracks had bends mostly at the top of eg 45 deg hills the 'recovery' could be natural (ie done without any ERS)
like aviation's free conversion of KE to PE and PE to KE

though also (given the intended proliferation of green hydrogen manufacture, transport and storage) .....
we could still race ICE ...
in a hydrogen tunnel a car can carry compressed air or oxygen 'fuel' and combust it with the ambient hydrogen

thus ... the 'aerodynamic' drag being about 2-7% of that at present usual ....
it's more efficient than a vacuum-tunnel 'maglev supertrain'

what's not to like ?

[mzso]

Even in road use, a "hybrid" transmissions allows the ice to operate at its peak efficiency for most or all of the time. The most efficient package would be a charged engine. A charged engine will also be lighter than NA and have lower friction losses.

This is supposed to be the pinnacle of motor racing. Not the pinnacle of environmental gimmicks.

A more efficient and lighter engine is just better for the same power, not a "gimmick".
Using cruder technology that performs worse is in no way a "pinnacle".

With this kind of talk , there could be a split in F1. Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari might want to start a breakaway series if F1 keeps getting carried away down this environmental considerations road.

Red Bull and McLaren doesn't care. Ferrari lives out of F1. Leaving might be suicidal.

[Stu]

stimulated by the last 2 posts I can say that ....
it has just been announced in the UK that (quite near to me) progress will continue to....

generate hydrogen from surplus windfarm electricity ....
store said hydrogen in a handy undersea cavern formerly used for natural gas storage and ....
burn said hydrogen in a gas turbine turning an electrical generator .....
so comprising an energy storage pseudo-battery to support (at 35 MW) electricity supply when the wind has fallen

similarly near they are to convert an oil refinery/port by equipping it for importation/storage of Saudi-made ammonia

This also works well for wind/solar energy capture in equatorial Africa & the Middle East, store unused energy as either Hydrogen or Methanol, export using Super-Tankers.

[vorticism]

Passing thought: retain prev regs' split turbo, compressor at the front, replace the MGUH with a gearset to the nose of the crankshaft. Mechanical turbocompound utilizing familiar hardware. Lag would be no issue due to the mechanical linkage.

[Stu]

Even in road use, a "hybrid" transmissions allows the ice to operate at its peak efficiency for most or all of the time. The most efficient package would be a charged engine. A charged engine will also be lighter than NA and have lower friction losses.

This is supposed to be the pinnacle of motor racing. Not the pinnacle of environmental gimmicks.

With this kind of talk , there could be a split in F1. Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari might want to start a breakaway series if F1 keeps getting carried away down this environmental considerations road.

Even if they don't , a competing series could spring up. And all it would take is one major to go across the isle and that would present a huge threat to the status quo of F1

Like the recently trademarked “Hybrid V10” package?
…currently awaiting all details…

[Bio]

Even in road use, a "hybrid" transmissions allows the ice to operate at its peak efficiency for most or all of the time. The most efficient package would be a charged engine. A charged engine will also be lighter than NA and have lower friction losses.

This is supposed to be the pinnacle of motor racing. Not the pinnacle of environmental gimmicks.

A more efficient and lighter engine is just better for the same power, not a "gimmick".
Using cruder technology that performs worse is in no way a "pinnacle".

With this kind of talk , there could be a split in F1. Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari might want to start a breakaway series if F1 keeps getting carried away down this environmental considerations road.

Red Bull and McLaren doesn't care. Ferrari lives out of F1. Leaving might be suicidal.

Ferrari is a 68 billion euros Company (79 billion dollars) with 6.7 billion euros (7.8 billion dollars) in revenues. They can perfectly live without F1 and they are the only F1 team that can do it, they just have to divert their budget to other series as they started doing with WEC. The rest of the crop live off of Ferrari. Good luck watching some energy drink cans on 4 wheels or some unknown british garage owners if that ever happens, especially if they start a new series with real constructors such as Porsche, BMW, etc.

[mzso]

Ferrari is a 68 billion euros Company (79 billion dollars) with 6.7 billion euros (7.8 billion dollars) in revenues. They can perfectly live without F1 and they are the only F1 team that can do it, they just have to divert their budget to other series as they started doing with WEC. The rest of the crop live off of Ferrari. Good luck watching some energy drink cans on 4 wheels or some unknown british garage owners if that ever happens, especially if they start a new series with real constructors such as Porsche, BMW, etc.

What do you mean "only". Manufacturer can do whatever they want with their teams. And they don't rely on F1 to make money.
It's doubtful Ferrari can keep up its prestige without F1. And without F1 they would need to find a way to market their cars more traditionally, F1 serves as their marketing campaign.

[Bio]

Ferrari is a 68 billion euros Company (79 billion dollars) with 6.7 billion euros (7.8 billion dollars) in revenues. They can perfectly live without F1 and they are the only F1 team that can do it, they just have to divert their budget to other series as they started doing with WEC. The rest of the crop live off of Ferrari. Good luck watching some energy drink cans on 4 wheels or some unknown british garage owners if that ever happens, especially if they start a new series with real constructors such as Porsche, BMW, etc.

What do you mean "only". Manufacturer can do whatever they want with their teams. And they don't rely on F1 to make money.
It's doubtful Ferrari can keep up its prestige without F1. And without F1 they would need to find a way to market their cars more traditionally, F1 serves as their marketing campaign.

There are no profitable manufacturers in F1 apart from Ferrari, that's what I mean. Mercedes are designed and build in Stuttgart, not in Brackley or Brixworth. What you see competing in F1 isn't a Mercedes, it's the former Brawn GP/Honda F1/BAR/Tyrrell/whatever...when they'll be tired they'll sell the team to someone else. You can paint the car silver and stick on it as many stars you want, it'll never be a Mercedes and that's why the germans don't give a damn about it. Same goes for the new Audi, they just bought quotes of Sauber, it's not a team within the factory at Ingolstadt. Aston Martin is over 100 years old, sells 6000 cars a year, doesn't design its own engines and never made a profit in its life, so does McLaren (which sells even less cars). Alpine? Come on...Williams, Haas, RBR, RB? They are not manufacturers.

As for marketing, BMW is the only german premium manufacturer not involved in F1 and it's the one that sells the most cars and is in better shape compared to the others. What about Porsche who never did anything in F1? What marketing are you talking about? As long as your product is good you'll be fine, F1 or not, especially if you can divert your investments to other series new or current (ie. Indycar).

[Badger]

This is supposed to be the pinnacle of motor racing. Not the pinnacle of environmental gimmicks.

A more efficient and lighter engine is just better for the same power, not a "gimmick".
Using cruder technology that performs worse is in no way a "pinnacle".

With this kind of talk , there could be a split in F1. Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari might want to start a breakaway series if F1 keeps getting carried away down this environmental considerations road.

Red Bull and McLaren doesn't care. Ferrari lives out of F1. Leaving might be suicidal.

Ferrari is a 68 billion euros Company (79 billion dollars) with 6.7 billion euros (7.8 billion dollars) in revenues. They can perfectly live without F1 and they are the only F1 team that can do it, they just have to divert their budget to other series as they started doing with WEC. The rest of the crop live off of Ferrari. Good luck watching some energy drink cans on 4 wheels or some unknown british garage owners if that ever happens, especially if they start a new series with real constructors such as Porsche, BMW, etc.

Ferrari hasn't won in 18 years and the series has never been in better financial shape. Ferrari is not as key as it once was, times change.

[Bio]

A more efficient and lighter engine is just better for the same power, not a "gimmick".
Using cruder technology that performs worse is in no way a "pinnacle".


Red Bull and McLaren doesn't care. Ferrari lives out of F1. Leaving might be suicidal.

Ferrari is a 68 billion euros Company (79 billion dollars) with 6.7 billion euros (7.8 billion dollars) in revenues. They can perfectly live without F1 and they are the only F1 team that can do it, they just have to divert their budget to other series as they started doing with WEC. The rest of the crop live off of Ferrari. Good luck watching some energy drink cans on 4 wheels or some unknown british garage owners if that ever happens, especially if they start a new series with real constructors such as Porsche, BMW, etc.

Ferrari hasn't won in 18 years and the series has never been in better financial shape. Ferrari is not as key as it once was, times change.

It's always you eh? The point here is that F1 needs Ferrari more than Ferrari needs F1, hence the biggest bonus handed to the reds. The second point made is that at some point, regardless of the bonus, they'll have enough of being fooled by a bunch of british crooks and will look somewhere else and as soon as Ferrari pulls the plug it'll all start to crumble like an old sand castle, especially if they set up a new series with actual manufacturers, like Porsche for example, not the fake ones we actually see in F1. Let's wait till the americans realize what's going on (and get bored as they usually do, since they are in just for the novelty and DtS drama) and you'll see the money disappear faster than a F1 itself. That'll be the last nail in the coffin.

[gruntguru]

. . . we could still race ICE ...
in a hydrogen tunnel a car can carry compressed air or oxygen 'fuel' and combust it with the ambient hydrogen

thus ... the 'aerodynamic' drag being about 2-7% of that at present usual ....
it's more efficient than a vacuum-tunnel 'maglev supertrain'

what's not to like ?

Lack of downforce?

[gruntguru]

Ferrari is a 68 billion euros Company (79 billion dollars) with 6.7 billion euros (7.8 billion dollars) in revenues. They can perfectly live without F1 and they are the only F1 team that can do it, they just have to divert their budget to other series as they started doing with WEC. The rest of the crop live off of Ferrari. Good luck watching some energy drink cans on 4 wheels or some unknown british garage owners if that ever happens, especially if they start a new series with real constructors such as Porsche, BMW, etc.

Ferrari hasn't won in 18 years and the series has never been in better financial shape. Ferrari is not as key as it once was, times change.

It's always you eh? The point here is that F1 needs Ferrari more than Ferrari needs F1, hence the biggest bonus handed to the reds. The second point made is that at some point, regardless of the bonus, they'll have enough of being fooled by a bunch of british crooks and will look somewhere else and as soon as Ferrari pulls the plug it'll all start to crumble like an old sand castle, especially if they set up a new series with actual manufacturers, like Porsche for example, not the fake ones we actually see in F1. Let's wait till the americans realize what's going on (and get bored as they usually do, since they are in just for the novelty and DtS drama) and you'll see the money disappear faster than a F1 itself. That'll be the last nail in the coffin.

Go post in one of the F1 politics threads.

[vorticism]

but ....
if the tracks had bends mostly at the top of eg 45 deg hills the 'recovery' could be natural (ie done without any ERS)
like aviation's free conversion of KE to PE and PE to KE

though also (given the intended proliferation of green hydrogen manufacture, transport and storage) .....
we could still race ICE ...
in a hydrogen tunnel a car can carry compressed air or oxygen 'fuel' and combust it with the ambient hydrogen

thus ... the 'aerodynamic' drag being about 2-7% of that at present usual ....
it's more efficient than a vacuum-tunnel 'maglev supertrain'

what's not to like ?

I like this. Painting with first principals. You should author a physics book for children with examples like this. Gravitational ES. Replace the weight of the battery pack with... A planet. Fortunately we already have that part. The incline angle (rate of charge--potentially immense) would be limited by tyre and suspension vertical loading, and the vertical g limits of the driver just as in fighter jets.

[TeamKoolGreen]

Even in road use, a "hybrid" transmissions allows the ice to operate at its peak efficiency for most or all of the time. The most efficient package would be a charged engine. A charged engine will also be lighter than NA and have lower friction losses.

This is supposed to be the pinnacle of motor racing. Not the pinnacle of environmental gimmicks.

A more efficient and lighter engine is just better for the same power, not a "gimmick".
Using cruder technology that performs worse is in no way a "pinnacle".

With this kind of talk , there could be a split in F1. Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari might want to start a breakaway series if F1 keeps getting carried away down this environmental considerations road.

Red Bull and McLaren doesn't care. Ferrari lives out of F1. Leaving might be suicidal.

The 2026 power units are literally less efficient than the power units that were used 12 years ago in 2014. So again, this environmental road to nowhere that F1 is on, is full of contradictions.

In 2021, Honda said it was quitting F1 to focus corporate resources on carbon neutrality by 2050. (while the Indycar program was full speed ahead) Now miraculously, they rejoin F1 again. In the meantime, they forced Indycar to go hybrid and now they are talking about leaving Indycar because the expenses are too high.

WRC scrapped hybrids in 2024 and Toyota, Hyundai and Ford are still in as manufactures.

F1 does not have to be held ransom by the boardrooms of manufactures who don't know anything about racing. All this 50% electric thing did it make it more likely that Audi , Ford and Honda will get their clock cleaned by Mercedes. And the likely result of this is them leaving again.

The reason these mfg'ers were interested in F1 is because of the popularity of F1. They don't need to be bribed into the sport. And if they do, they shouldn't be joining in the first place.

[saviour stivala]

The 2026 power unit will be more efficient than the 2025 power unit, even with a less powerful ICE, it cannot be less efficient when using 30% less fuel during a race when producing the same power output.