Ferrari Project 678 Speculation Thread

[Sbrillo88]

rumors saids that in Ferrari are a little behind with the schedule. They haven't finished to assembly the car because they made last minute changes before the first assembly. Nothing to worry about but neither a good sign. Drivers will make the seat-fit from 17 to 19 January and then will be the fire-up of the PU. Not so much time to complete the car before the 23 January...

[cplchanb]

rumors saids that in Ferrari are a little behind with the schedule. They haven't finished to assembly the car because they made last minute changes before the first assembly. Nothing to worry about but neither a good sign. Drivers will make the seat-fit from 17 to 19 January and then will be the fire-up of the PU. Not so much time to complete the car before the 23 January...

thats what they said about the RB18 and look what happened to them

[matteosc]

Every engineer knows that nothing stays constant under changing conditions, that's also why flexiwings keep happening, because nothing is infinitely stiff, and the rulemakers know it. They can only design tests where a given load is added, and it's allowed to flex within a margin.

A volume will also not be the same at 20° and at 100°+, so if the compression ratio is 16:1 at 20°, it would still be as illegal if it's 16.01:1 at 100° as if it was 18:1 or 20:1 at 100°.
But how will you measure it to prove that ?? You can't with the current regulations, as there's no demand for in-cylinder pressure sensors.

So how will you even prove that Mercedes is increasing their CR that much with temperature?

What about a fuel flow? That can also change with time, maybe be higher when a sensor is not measuring. And in that case, how would you prove it?

This just to say: it all depends on where we put the bar at "cheating". The spirit of the rule is always bent, the question is how elastic is it?

By adding a second sensor out of phase from the first one, which is what the FIA did after finding out what Ferrari did.

If you add an in-cylinder pressure sensor to the regulations, you would find that NO engine has the same exact compression ratio at ambient temperature as it does at working temperature, so all engines would be illegal, as according to the regulations a compression ratio of 16.1:1 is just as illegal as 18:1 or 20:1

While it is true that hot engine will have a slightly different compression ratio, you are assuming that they would all exceed the prescribed 16:1. In reality only those that designed their engine in such a way would exceed it significantly, for the other the change would be marginal and may even reduce it.

As comparison, when the FIA added a second sensor, the fuel flow was definitely different from all engines, because that is how it works. But only Ferrari designed their system so that with a second sensor the measured fuel flow would be significantly higher.

That is the same thing: in both cases they designed their engines to comply with the rule verification method, not with the rule itself. It's either they both cheated or neither did.
If you ask me they both did, because I would have designed the engine to respect the spirit of the rule, but that is one the the many reasons why I do not work in F1.

[FDD]

rumors saids that in Ferrari are a little behind with the schedule. They haven't finished to assembly the car because they made last minute changes before the first assembly. Nothing to worry about but neither a good sign. Drivers will make the seat-fit from 17 to 19 January and then will be the fire-up of the PU. Not so much time to complete the car before the 23 January...

Rumors are created by journalist & youtubers to get likes and views.
If I remember well FV said that they'll appear on the first test with A spec.
I am pretty sure that all teams will do just the same.
It is also 100% for sure that on 23. January Ferrari will present car which is A spec or maybe only close to that.

[jambuka]

So Ferrari is the only one with bio fuel and all other PU manufacturers are going with synthetic fuel ?

[dialtone]

So Ferrari is the only one with bio fuel and all other PU manufacturers are going with synthetic fuel ?

Doesn’t really matter. Only thing that matters is power density and how it detonates.

[AR3-GP]

So Ferrari is the only one with bio fuel and all other PU manufacturers are going with synthetic fuel ?

Doesn’t really matter. Only thing that matters is power density and how it detonates.

Bio-fuels typically have a lower energy density than e-fuels. This is important because of the new energy flow limit (3000MJ/hr iirc). The synthetic fuel teams will carry slightly less fuel onboard (weight). Of course, the secondary factor is how well you can extract the energy, but the synthetic fuels have a start line advantage.

[Emag]

So Ferrari is the only one with bio fuel and all other PU manufacturers are going with synthetic fuel ?

But why though? Is it because of Shell, or did Ferrari request this.

[dialtone]

So Ferrari is the only one with bio fuel and all other PU manufacturers are going with synthetic fuel ?

Doesn’t really matter. Only thing that matters is power density and how it detonates.

Bio-fuels typically have a lower energy density than e-fuels. This is important because of the new energy flow limit (3000MJ/hr iirc). The synthetic fuel teams will carry slightly less fuel onboard (weight). Of course, the secondary factor is how well you can extract the energy, but the synthetic fuels have a start line advantage.

Meh. The fuels have energy density limit exists to limit the amount of research and costs that go into the fuel. The limit is 38-41MJ/kg.

Furthermore F1 used E10 until last year, this year biofuels are basically E25, it's a big change but not unthinkable.

16.3 Fuel Properties
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... 6-11_1.pdf

[dialtone]

I will also add...

Shell has been using biofuels in indycar since 2023, they are ready and at scale and advanced research on their fuels.

Meanwhile other teams:
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ologation/

After a request from fuel suppliers, teams are allowed to use fuels that are not FIA homologated as sustainable fuels during the 2026 testing weeks

[Timtim99]

I will also add...

Shell has been using biofuels in indycar since 2023, they are ready and at scale and advanced research on their fuels.

Meanwhile other teams:
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ologation/

After a request from fuel suppliers, teams are allowed to use fuels that are not FIA homologated as sustainable fuels during the 2026 testing weeks

But later in the season the teams running synthetic fuel will catch up and pass Ferrari we are making a bad decision again running bio fuels

[dialtone]

I will also add...

Shell has been using biofuels in indycar since 2023, they are ready and at scale and advanced research on their fuels.

Meanwhile other teams:
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ologation/

After a request from fuel suppliers, teams are allowed to use fuels that are not FIA homologated as sustainable fuels during the 2026 testing weeks

But later in the season the teams running synthetic fuel will catch up and pass Ferrari we are making a bad decision again running bio fuels

This makes no sense… the energy density is fixed by rule, rumors are that fuel is a non factor, FIA has declared they don’t want a development race on the fuel. Additives are regulated. What are we talking about?

[AR3-GP]

I will also add...

Shell has been using biofuels in indycar since 2023, they are ready and at scale and advanced research on their fuels.

Meanwhile other teams:
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ologation/

After a request from fuel suppliers, teams are allowed to use fuels that are not FIA homologated as sustainable fuels during the 2026 testing weeks

But later in the season the teams running synthetic fuel will catch up and pass Ferrari we are making a bad decision again running bio fuels

This makes no sense… the energy density is fixed by rule, rumors are that fuel is a non factor, FIA has declared they don’t want a development race on the fuel. Additives are regulated. What are we talking about?

Fuel is a factor. Theoretical energy density and the actual energy extracted are different things. The latter depends a lot on the chemistry of the fuel. How well it vaporizes, how fast it burns, and the temperature of the flame.

[ryaan2904]

But later in the season the teams running synthetic fuel will catch up and pass Ferrari we are making a bad decision again running bio fuels

This makes no sense… the energy density is fixed by rule, rumors are that fuel is a non factor, FIA has declared they don’t want a development race on the fuel. Additives are regulated. What are we talking about?

Fuel is a factor. Theoretical energy density and the actual energy extracted are different things. The latter depends a lot on the chemistry of the fuel. How well it vaporizes, how fast it burns, and the temperature of the flame.

Is it a concrete fact the biofuels can't match synth fuel in terms of performance? Like, cant there be additives added in the blend to improve this metric?

[bananapeel23]

This makes no sense… the energy density is fixed by rule, rumors are that fuel is a non factor, FIA has declared they don’t want a development race on the fuel. Additives are regulated. What are we talking about?

Fuel is a factor. Theoretical energy density and the actual energy extracted are different things. The latter depends a lot on the chemistry of the fuel. How well it vaporizes, how fast it burns, and the temperature of the flame.

Is it a concrete fact the biofuels can't match synth fuel in terms of performance? Like, cant there be additives added in the blend to improve this metric?

The above comment answered your question. The right additives can give bio-fuels properties that may make them combust better than synthetic fuels do, which can lead to much higher performance. Lower density fuel might also have some performance benefits, since more, less energy dense fuel could potentially help control temperatures and in turn allow the teams to run leaner.

Remember that the current rules don't have a fuel flow limit. They have an energy flow limit. If your fuel is of lower density, you can increase fuel flow to compensate, but you also have to carry more fuel at race start.

What will differentiate the different fuels from each other is not how dense they are, but what percentage of the potential energy the teams manage to extract from it. Bio fuels and synthetic fuels are likely to have different advantages and drawbacks. Which ends up being better remains to be seen.