2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[mzso]

I think this compression ratio controversy is mostly bogus. It feels like everyone but Audi is already using thermal expansion as much as they can to increase compression ratio. They're all the only ones desperately complaining about it all the time.

[Juzh]

Binotto says full throttle mgu-k harvesting is in fact a thing, despite some specific posters here religiously saying the opposite. I will direct you to edu2703's post in audi team thread where he kindly posted key takeaways
https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewt ... 6#p1318296

- The most efficient recharge strategy will be to have the MGU-K "brake" the car at the end of the straights while still on full throttle (so "waste" fuel) to recharge the battery more.

[mzso]

Binotto says full throttle mgu-k harvesting is in fact a thing, despite some specific posters here religiously saying the opposite. I will direct you to edu2703's post in audi team thread where he kindly posted key takeaways
viewtopic.php?p=1318296#p1318296

- The most efficient recharge strategy will be to have the MGU-K "brake" the car at the end of the straights while still on full throttle (so "waste" fuel) to recharge the battery more.

It might just mean that their system is inferior to established manufacturers.
He also said "MGU-K "brake" effect will be so strong off throttle that drivers will push the throttle pedal much earlier". Which goes against this, and also doesn't need to be the case even if they regenerate off throttle, during the turns.

[FittingMechanics]

Binotto says full throttle mgu-k harvesting is in fact a thing, despite some specific posters here religiously saying the opposite. I will direct you to edu2703's post in audi team thread where he kindly posted key takeaways
viewtopic.php?p=1318296#p1318296

- The most efficient recharge strategy will be to have the MGU-K "brake" the car at the end of the straights while still on full throttle (so "waste" fuel) to recharge the battery more.

It is not allowed to harvest when the driver is full throttle. I am guessing Binotto is talking about lift and coast harvesting. If the driver is off throttle then the ICU can still work and energy can be harvested.

Read this article for more details - it's a quite fascinating article.
https://wgmotorsport.hu/cikk/total-reset

Here are two quotes from the article:

Then there’s the classic lift-and-coast: lifting early before the braking zone, with no brake pedal yet. Above 300 km/h, the MGU-K can begin rear-axle generator braking while the driver is still coasting. The key is keeping active aero working so drag doesn’t do all the deceleration; you want as much as possible to be generator braking. With good timing and limited lap-time loss, another 150–200 kJ can be recovered before braking even begins.

Likewise, “braking against full throttle on the straight” is not allowed: with positive throttle demand, generator mode cannot be used to brake the ICE. That is only permitted when the driver is no longer requesting propulsion (throttle lift). Otherwise, braking the rear axle against full throttle would conflict with the ban on traction-control-like behaviour.

[Tommy Cookers]

Likewise, “braking against full throttle on the straight” is not allowed: with positive throttle demand, generator mode cannot be used to brake the ICE. That is only permitted when the driver is no longer requesting propulsion (throttle lift). Otherwise, braking the rear axle against full throttle would conflict with the ban on traction-control-like behaviour.

fwiw I think that the article has fewer mistakes than any other - but is wrong in the above

don't they understand what a PU is ? ...
and what is a map of accelerator position, rpm, and PU output torque is ?

where is the rule that makes matters 'only permitted' as claimed ?

people misunderstand generation ....
generating produces load regardless - the velocity can fall or it can remain or it can continue rising

[FW17]

The official power output of the combustion engines is stated as 400 kW. Unconfirmed rumors suggest that Mercedes is aiming for 424 kW.https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... orentrick/

[karana]

Binotto says full throttle mgu-k harvesting is in fact a thing, despite some specific posters here religiously saying the opposite. I will direct you to edu2703's post in audi team thread where he kindly posted key takeaways
viewtopic.php?p=1318296#p1318296

- The most efficient recharge strategy will be to have the MGU-K "brake" the car at the end of the straights while still on full throttle (so "waste" fuel) to recharge the battery more.

It is not allowed to harvest when the driver is full throttle. I am guessing Binotto is talking about lift and coast harvesting. If the driver is off throttle then the ICU can still work and energy can be harvested.

Read this article for more details - it's a quite fascinating article.
https://wgmotorsport.hu/cikk/total-reset

Here are two quotes from the article:

Then there’s the classic lift-and-coast: lifting early before the braking zone, with no brake pedal yet. Above 300 km/h, the MGU-K can begin rear-axle generator braking while the driver is still coasting. The key is keeping active aero working so drag doesn’t do all the deceleration; you want as much as possible to be generator braking. With good timing and limited lap-time loss, another 150–200 kJ can be recovered before braking even begins.

Likewise, “braking against full throttle on the straight” is not allowed: with positive throttle demand, generator mode cannot be used to brake the ICE. That is only permitted when the driver is no longer requesting propulsion (throttle lift). Otherwise, braking the rear axle against full throttle would conflict with the ban on traction-control-like behaviour.

In the paragraph above the quoted parts he describes part throttle harvesting. If braking the rear axle against full throttle would be TC-like behaviour, than part throttle harvesting would be TC-like even more! Besides the fact that the cars certainly won't be traction limited anyway on the end of straights where you would use full throttle harvesting.

Also, rule C5.12.6 basically makes it clear that this absolutely is allowed:

Unless the electrical DC power of the ERS-K is negative, and subject to Article B7.2.1, the driver
maximum power demand must not be reduced at any greater than the rates defined below:

a. 50kW in any 1s period at Competitions where the FIA determines that the power limited
distance exceeds 3500m. These Competitions and tThe vehicle fundamentals used for the
calculation of the power limited distance may be found in the document FIA-F1-DOC-C034.
b. 100kW in any 1s period at all other Competitions.

Furthermore, the total power reduction is limited to a maximum of 600kW and the resulting
electrical DC power of the ERS-K must remain above −250kW

[TeamKoolGreen]

Audi agreed to join F1 before the war in Europe. Now with the sanctions and counter sanctions and resultant high natural gas prices , the industrial sector is contracting. This is also why INEOS is no longer on the air box of the Mercedes.

Audi might threaten to leave F1 over this if they get completely bulled over by Mercedes. And they really have themselves to blame by demanding these ridiculous regs. Honda won't be feeling any better either

[BorisTheBlade]

It is simply mad, that people still argue the fact of full throttle recovery. Especially, as the FIA already applied an official marketing term in calling it Super-clipping.
Again: You can recover up to 250 KW at full throttle, effectively only sending around 150 KW to the wheels.
And this is also much better than LnC, as you stay in straight line mode. As soon as you lift, the wings close - this has also been stated by the FIA themselves (although I know about the discussion regarding the lack of a regulation for when exactly SLM needs to end).

The paragraph against a TC is, that you are only allowed to REDUCE power sent to the wheels during any full throttle period at a rate defined by the regulations. The TC is meant for increasing power to the wheels in a controlled way.

Some 20 pages ago I posted charts visualizing these exact rules. While they'd need some modifications in terms of the latest revisions of the rules, they are still about 90% accurate.

/edit: The post mentioned above:
viewtopic.php?f=4&p=1311253#p1311253

[Rikhart]

You know a set of regulations is ridiculous when one month before the first race we don't even know how it actually works.

[BorisTheBlade]

You know a set of regulations is ridiculous when one month before the first race we don't even know how it actually works.

Well, I find it rather fascinating.
In past decades, I concentrated more on armchair interpretations of the Bodywork rules. This is the first time, I started digging into the PU regulations - especially everything regarding the Energy Management. Maybe, this is just so interesting to me because of the sensations I was having after switching to a BEV myself last year.

[FittingMechanics]

Does this mean that when you are full throttle harvesting you will be sending few hundred kW less to the wheels then when on full throttle but without electrical power?

So instead of let's say 400 kW you will send 100-200? It will look like lift and coast.

Who decides when is this harvested, it is almost auto braking.