2026 Drama: Alleged engine loophole

[upsidedowntoast]

Autoracer is now reporting the 2nd combustion chamber theory...

It's weird because I remember exactly where this misinfo came about in the first place:
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... orentrick/

They proposed it as a devil's advocate theory and then in the next sentence went on to say "no, that would have been shot down as illegal immediately".

Yet now a ton of people are latching on to that as fact. Including other outlets I guess. Same as with "Red Bull switching sides" -- the original source of that was the Italian newspaper saying "Red Bull is *open* to switching sides" and by the very next day people are acting like they already have / that they were the ones who leaked the news to the rest of the teams because they couldn't get it to work. We still don't know if Red Bull did or didn't get the trick to work.

What we do know is that 1) the rumors of the Mercedes trick was already circulating as early as the middle of last year, 2) during that same time Red Bull was already rumored to have it too, and 3) the FIA has acknowledged some kind of temperature-based compression ratio trick but no other details, whether it's thermal expansion of metals, negative thermal expansion, antechambers, curved chambers, etc.

Everyone is just citing soundbites from one another without verification or fact checking I guess.

Newey said that except for one manufacturer everyone is on board. At this point, the reality is Mercedes is on one side and others on the other. While the details of the rumors might be nonsensical, the rumors themselves are true -- Mercedes potentially is doing something that others dislike.

Ok, that's true -- forgot about that Newey quote. Still not sure if RB didn't get the trick to work at all, or if they just haven't made the trick work as well as Merc and decided that whatever time they improved was worth sacrificing to nerf the 4 Merc teams.

I stand by the 2nd combustion chamber thing though. I've seen no proof it exists but I know the origin of the suggestion.

[upsidedowntoast]

Ferraris engines also "passed the tests" and fuel flow meters in 2019. But they didn't get away with it after the FIA figured it out. This might be a similar scenario. If so, a similar solution where they nerf the Merc engines somehow to compensate if they cant make them legal in time might happen.

I mean...they still got to keep all their points and wins from that season didn't they?

[FNTC]

But they got nerfed in 2020, and now the cat is out of the bag before the season starts, so like I said, let's see. If its all the other teams against the Mercedes powered ones, they have a problem.

[f1isgood]

I think the bigger difference is Mercedes might have potentially outed themselves (assuming it's only them) before even we went racing. Ferrari only got caught after having used it in the season. It is one thing to restrospectively do something, and an entirely different thing to get caught before even going racing.

This appears more serious than usual as at least from the FIA's perspective, the matter is more nuanced given that the point of these regulations was to attract newcomers.

That said, I have expressed the same opinion before --- nothing will come out of this. The FIA will fold. If indeed Mercedes have to run detuned engines because of this or incur some actually relevant penalty, then the leadership in the engine department all the way back to Toto should be under serious scrutiny.

[SB15]

I think the bigger difference is Mercedes might have potentially outed themselves (assuming it's only them) before even we went racing. Ferrari only got caught after having used it in the season. It is one thing to restrospectively do something, and an entirely different thing to get caught before even going racing.

This appears more serious than usual as at least from the FIA's perspective, the matter is more nuanced given that the point of these regulations was to attract newcomers.

That said, I have expressed the same opinion before --- nothing will come out of this. The FIA will fold. If indeed Mercedes have to run detuned engines because of this or incur some actually relevant penalty, then the leadership in the engine department all the way back to Toto should be under serious scrutiny.

"IF" they're doing it

[f1isgood]

I think the bigger difference is Mercedes might have potentially outed themselves (assuming it's only them) before even we went racing. Ferrari only got caught after having used it in the season. It is one thing to restrospectively do something, and an entirely different thing to get caught before even going racing.

This appears more serious than usual as at least from the FIA's perspective, the matter is more nuanced given that the point of these regulations was to attract newcomers.

That said, I have expressed the same opinion before --- nothing will come out of this. The FIA will fold. If indeed Mercedes have to run detuned engines because of this or incur some actually relevant penalty, then the leadership in the engine department all the way back to Toto should be under serious scrutiny.

"IF" they're doing it

They're doing it. I don't know why else would Tombazis speak about it, Newey mention a single manufacturer and it's been widely reported that four teams except Mercedes are on one side.

Unless we want to discard every bit of news as rumor, at which point any discussion about it is useless.

Of course what they are doing could be something else that even the FIA don't understand and not skirting the legality lines. In which case, you just gotta give it to them and move on.

[SB15]

I think the bigger difference is Mercedes might have potentially outed themselves (assuming it's only them) before even we went racing. Ferrari only got caught after having used it in the season. It is one thing to restrospectively do something, and an entirely different thing to get caught before even going racing.

This appears more serious than usual as at least from the FIA's perspective, the matter is more nuanced given that the point of these regulations was to attract newcomers.

That said, I have expressed the same opinion before --- nothing will come out of this. The FIA will fold. If indeed Mercedes have to run detuned engines because of this or incur some actually relevant penalty, then the leadership in the engine department all the way back to Toto should be under serious scrutiny.

"IF" they're doing it

They're doing it. I don't know why else would Tombazis speak about it, Newey mention a single manufacturer and it's been widely reported that four teams except Mercedes are on one side.

Unless we want to discard every bit of news as rumor, at which point any discussion about it is useless.

Of course what they are doing could be something else that even the FIA don't understand and not skirting the legality lines. In which case, you just gotta give it to them and move on.

They absolutely have to be doing something else, I don't think the Mercedes CEO even knows what the team has came up with. A lot of teams can come up with some type of idea for the compression ratio thing which to me I don't blame them but, Redbull were the only one's who even brought up the rumor because of an ex-Mercedes engineer gave the team what Mercedes is "potentially" doing?

I don't know. To me the only thing we know is, they started on the 2026 engine earlier than anyone else. Also, I don't think this will be the only "complaint" from other teams regarding the W17.

[f1isgood]

"IF" they're doing it

They're doing it. I don't know why else would Tombazis speak about it, Newey mention a single manufacturer and it's been widely reported that four teams except Mercedes are on one side.

Unless we want to discard every bit of news as rumor, at which point any discussion about it is useless.

Of course what they are doing could be something else that even the FIA don't understand and not skirting the legality lines. In which case, you just gotta give it to them and move on.

They absolutely have to be doing something else, I don't think the Mercedes CEO even knows what the team has came up with. A lot of teams can come up with some type of idea for the compression ratio thing which to me I don't blame them but, Redbull were the only one's who even brought up the rumor because of an ex-Mercedes engineer gave the team what Mercedes is "potentially" doing?

I don't know. To me the only thing we know is, they started on the 2026 engine earlier than anyone else. Also, I don't think this will be the only "complaint" from other teams regarding the W17.

These are your opinions and it's perfectly normal take this stance. Mercedes CEO might not be a technical person but he sure as hell knows what the consequences of treading legality lines. Indeed, Red Bull are likely to be the ones that brought this up given the proximity of MK and Brackley.

There are limits on how much resource teams can pour into 2026 engines if I am not mistaken. You cannot start early unless you had insider information. Everyone more or less had similar time. Naturally, given historical experience and ability to use resources from other parts of the team like trucking division or road car division, Ferrari and Mercedes should be the favorites in terms of engines going into these regulations.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

Unless FIA and FOM are willing to lose the top 2 teams from the 2025 WCC including the reigning WDC from the first, however many races, then they are going to let Mercedes race.

Then it's up to the other teams to catch up using the rules that exist precisely for that reason.

Hell, in 2022 they did nothing to nerf the advantage Red Bull had from overspending the year before whilst developing their 2022 car. And advantage which lasted until 2024 when the real consequences of the restrictions on their 2023 development time were felt.

Of course it is also entirely possible that this is all rumours and speculation and actually Mercedes aren't doing anything that the rest of the grid are doing. Unless the other teams have actually seen inside the Mercesdes ICE.....which would raise MORE questions than answers.

If this is the reasoning the just ban the engine.

This is straight blackmail reasoning and shows no interest or care for the championship or the sport. If they don’t care enough that they would threaten like that, then leave and be banned.

Ferrari took it on the chin as they took all of the disqualifications or bans or more over the years like 1997, total joke, if Michael wanted to take out Villeneuve he would have, they sure didn’t dq senna for retaliation on Prost when be was in Ferrari the next year.

Nobody needs Mercedes if that’s how they work.

It's not blackmail. It's simply what would happen if they ban the ICE. They can't race without an engine.

[dialtone]

It's not blackmail. It's simply what would happen if they ban the ICE. They can't race without an engine.

Gonna shed a tear and play my mini violin.

Ferrari had to redesign a whole engine in 3 months and had to use a car that wasn't meant for the new engine, completely ruined their following 2 seasons as a result.

Mercedes, if they end up paying like that, brought it onto themselves by crossing a line that is very black and white in the rules. Younger kids than me say: FAFO.

[peewon]

FIA wants fans to believe that all these restrictive rules are in place to make the sport more entertaining and sustainable for manufacturers. Then they pick and choose which team(s) gets to get away with finding loopholes or blatant violations. If they are going to allow these flimsy loophole exploits, just make the rules very basic and no restrictive. This isnt innovation, its politics.

[vorticism]

If its all the other teams against the Mercedes powered ones, they have a problem.

Wasn't a problem in 2014, 2015, 2016...

[AR3-GP]

Cadillac F1 CEO

“I think there’s unanimous views outside of Mercedes as to what should happen.

“That will continue to take its course in dialog with the FIA, and we’ll see what happens.

“I think everybody agrees that we won’t see some of those advantages in ’27, and it remains to be seen how that’s going to be policed in ’26.”

[upsidedowntoast]

I went and reread the rules one more time and I think this is where the Mercedes lawyers have the biggest advantage:

24 June 2024 version:

"No cylinder of the engine may have a geometric compression ratio higher than 16.0. The procedure which will be used to determine this value may be found in the Appendix to the Technical and Sporting Regulations."

In other words it specifically defines that measurement as the result of the test, i.e. "geometric compression ratio is defined as these cylinder/piston lengths measured at 20C (or whatever)". So the clause that says "all regulations must be followed at all times" can be interpeted as "(my cylinder/piston lengths at ambient temperature) are ALWAYS under 16:1" as opposed to "(my cylinder/piston lengths are under 16:1) only at ambient temperature".

Personally I thought the Ferrari engine was cool and should have been allowed too. But if I were to nitpick, the main difference is the regs that year stated "fuel flow must not be >x at all times". If instead the regs had stated "fuel flow must not be >x at all times where 'flow' is determined as the volume of fuel passing through y valve at every 0.5ms interval during engine operations", then that to me is legal.

The December 2025 update then reads:

"No cylinder of the engine may have a geometric compression ratio higher than 16.0. The procedure to measure this value will be detailed by each PU Manufacturer according to the Guidance Document FIA-F1-DOC-C042 and executed at ambient temperature."

This codifies the measurement procedure (ambient temperature) but replaces "determine" with "measure". Which simultaneously strengthens and weakens Mercedes' stance. To me it is not so cut and dry as "Mercedes made an illegal engine from the start and the FIA added the 'ambient temperature' thing in at the last minute to save them because they are biased". I don't think they are dumb enough to risk pursuing such a loophole if they weren't completely sure they would get away with it for 2026 at least. The financial investment into the metallurgy (or whatever the trick is), not to mention the fuel research for that higher compression ratio, is much more expensive and would take longer to fix than flex wings or a fancy fuel pump.

Really would love to be a fly on the wall in those meetings. I'm still not sure why the FIA has waited until now, less than a month out from Melbourne, to handle this. We've publicly known of these compression ratio rumors since the middle of last year so they would have known earlier than that.

On one hand, it's hard to believe Mercedes just went up to the FIA and openly said "Hey guys I know you said 16:1 but is it cool if we oopsie accidentally on purpose go up to 18:1 when the engine gets hot?" On the other hand, if Mercedes had been 100% sneaky about this you'd think someone would have picked up the phone and asked "Toto, what's going on? Is this why you guys were asking us all those questions about the compression ratio measurement procedures? We specifically said --" the moment the rumors broke last year.

I must be missing something major here if anyone cares to enlighten me.

[AR3-GP]

Fork found in fork factory?