Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[DarkAlman]

Just curious about a rumour thats floating around, people are saying that RBPT poached alot of honda guys that designed and built the 2021-2025 engines and that basically the team thats responsible for this year's engine is basically new.
Is that true? (at least would explain how good RBR is doing rn)

They may have recruited some of the people working in the UK facility but it's unlikely they were able to hire anyone from Sakura.

Firstly those Honda engineers (and their families) are unlikely to want to leave Japan for the UK, and more importantly the work culture of Japan is very different than we are used to.

Japanese generally don't chase salaries and opportunities like people in the west.

You get hired by a company like Honda for LIFE, leaving the company even for a better offer is very rare in Japan and they would consider that shameful behavior.

Honda would also consider Red Bull attempting to poach it's staff to be a personal insult.

It also works the opposite way though, Honda doesn't directly recruit from the outside either.

Even during their worst periods in the McHonda era Honda wouldn't hire any Mercedes or Ferrari engineers to try to solve their problems, they kept in house. Which led to one of my favorite Wazari San posts.

Summarized:

"Why don't you ask the Honda jet engine engineers for help"

"We make jet engines!?"

[velizare]

I really hope not. I got instant PTSD because I am certain they also tried this in 2015.

I remember too much vibration and also overheating.

well, that came from the long shaft of the split turbo which was already solved as they partnered with rb, and its now also banned by fia, so it cannot be the reason.

the honda pu of the earlier red bull times had also very-very conservative limiters, i can remember cases the pilots used to cancel them using dial/button combinations midrace.

didn't Honda first try the split turbo layout in 2017? I remember the 2015-16 engines used a conventional turbo layout, like Ferrari and Renault

yes you've right, 15-16 engines were with axial turbo forced by the mclaren size zero design.

[diffuser]

well, that came from the long shaft of the split turbo which was already solved as they partnered with rb, and its now also banned by fia, so it cannot be the reason.

the honda pu of the earlier red bull times had also very-very conservative limiters, i can remember cases the pilots used to cancel them using dial/button combinations midrace.

didn't Honda first try the split turbo layout in 2017? I remember the 2015-16 engines used a conventional turbo layout, like Ferrari and Renault

yes you've right, 15-16 engines were with axial turbo forced by the mclaren size zero design.

Wasn't the same as Renault, not sure we ever learned how Ferrari did it. Renault had both after the ICE. Honda had the compressor in the ICE with the turbine out the back. That then caused Honda further problems, they couldn't make the compressor big enough with it stuck in the V. In 17 and 18 they had a ton of reliability issues with the axle between the split turbo breaking all the time. It wasn't till they asked Honda Aero to build the shaft for them that they resolved that issue.

[DarkAlman]

Wasn't the same as Renault, not sure we ever learned how Ferrari did it. Renault had both after the ICE. Honda had the compressor in the ICE with the turbine out the back. That then caused Honda further problems, they couldn't make the compressor big enough with it stuck in the V. In 17 and 18 they had a ton of reliability issues with the axle between the split turbo breaking all the time. It wasn't till they asked Honda Aero to build the shaft for them that they resolved that issue.

IIRC they made the compressor smaller to fit inside the V needing them to spin it at higher RPM than normal, which exacerbated the problem.

It ran fine on the dyno, but when inside the car thermal + G-load issues kept breaking the shafts and turbine so they had to limit the RPM of the turbo for reliability.

Eventually someone at Honda realized they had an aero turbine department and that team solved the problem in no time.

"What do you mean you aren't using ceramic bearings?"

Jet engines were originally derived from turbo charger development in WW2 so it wasn't much of a stretch, the two technologies are actually closely related.

[bananapeel23]

I think the CR will be explicitly capped at 16 at all times for 27, what happens in 26 is probably going to be where most of the contention lies. They could treat it like DAS and allow Mercedes engined teams an advantage for 26 or they could equalize things by lowering the electrical energy or fuel flow available to the Mercedes engined cars. A lot is going to depend on the actual gap between the entire PUs, not just in the one area of CR. I don't think we're anywhere close to a 2014 type of situation here so if the Ferrari and RBPT engines are at least able to roughly equal the overall performance of the Mercedes engines over a lap then I think nothing will happen.

I feel it is more likely that it will be explicitly capped at 18 or 19. The teams and drivers are packing and are practically screaming for more power, while claiming that hitting 18 conventionally is relatively easy. Increasing the CR would go some way towards improving engine power without increasing energy flow rates. I do still feel like a small energy flow rates increase of 500-1000 MJ/hr is inevitable, but I feel like they want the smallest increase possible to avoid a complete ICE redesign.

[NL_Fer]

didn't Honda first try the split turbo layout in 2017? I remember the 2015-16 engines used a conventional turbo layout, like Ferrari and Renault

yes you've right, 15-16 engines were with axial turbo forced by the mclaren size zero design.

Wasn't the same as Renault, not sure we ever learned how Ferrari did it. Renault had both after the ICE. Honda had the compressor in the ICE with the turbine out the back. That then caused Honda further problems, they couldn't make the compressor big enough with it stuck in the V. In 17 and 18 they had a ton of reliability issues with the axle between the split turbo breaking all the time. It wasn't till they asked Honda Aero to build the shaft for them that they resolved that issue.

I remember for 16 they lifted the whole turbounit a few mm out of the V, to increase that axial compressor and the 2016 wasn’t that bad. It was still lacking to the rest, but not as 15 and also allot more reliable.

[Bence]

The so called miscalculations are beyond me... How on Earth can a strategically prepared (khm) group of engineers estimate stg sooo wrong?
The RA615H was weak, thirsty and missed any performance targets. But the moment as I heard in Jerez I thought of a monster. Interestingly, all $#itty Hondas were acoustically pleasing, even the 1994 "grenade" Indy V8 because of its odd firing order... So the targeted performance was always lower than needed, because now Honda sees things through the glasses of a humble dossierworm and the corporate culture totally forgot how the old Soichiro ticked. He was not today's gradual kind of person. He has designed a fancy new portable generator. Then the workers said - Boss, we don't have generators that fit into this housing! And Honda replied in the best yodalike way: - Now we are going to... (My target for the 615H would have been 2000bhp, so if we fükkittupp, we still remained with the half of it and call it a good day...) Then came 2017 with the new tires... Oh, we "miscalculated" the forces the car is generating and the result is a torsional lukewarm snot, and the forces simply broke the turboshaft. If you check the testing videos, the frightening noises were all rotational assembly related.
Interestingly, the first proper engine, the 621 was smaller than the 615. But its power density and consumption was on another planet.
I'm sure this year the target power was set too low, because - it's a Japanese thing - we read the rulebook, and follow it to the T. I'd recommend a consultation with Hungarians first, as they are automatically start looking for backdoors, workarounds, squirclifications, and generally how NOT to do something the way it's written...

Now comes Pirelli: oh the cars are faster than we calculated... Someone please call a competent tire manufacturer...

[diffuser]

Are we relitigating what happened in 2015?

[DarkJoney]

Hello dear all,

Unfortunately, I am so sad that decided to also mark myself there. My worst expectation that the program demolishment would give such a sub-par results appeared to be true...

I was in contact with Masaki Negoro, he event sent me a gift from Sakura, greatly appreciate. At the moment of time he was a head of Hybrid department, I just sent him and Honda staff some greetings after Abu-Dhabi 2021 and a lot of Honda people actually reached back. Currently, he is busy at Scania with a trucks what I see from his LinkedIn...

Tell me please, do you think speculation about engine is true, or it's the gearbox, or systemic issues of this Aston Martin? Or should we expect 2015sh vibe and disaster?

[zoroastar]

Just curious about a rumour thats floating around, people are saying that RBPT poached alot of honda guys that designed and built the 2021-2025 engines and that basically the team thats responsible for this year's engine is basically new.
Is that true? (at least would explain how good RBR is doing rn)

This is just a bogus narrative floating around the Alonso-sphere on social media. It’s very hard to recruit people from Honda because they are on the other side of the planet and work in a different language with a different corporate culture. It’s basically the Ferrari problem on stereoids. This is why RBPT mostly targeted HPP and other forms of more local recruitment.

thats what is reported by the british media, every time they talk about hondas return. if that is what you consider "the alonso sphere", you have been deceived. sky, f1 app and multiple british f1 podcasts state that many honda employees ended up at RBPT's practically daily, and have been since they announced their return. im not saying whether its true or not, just saying itd be extremely odd if alonso fans made up weird stories about honda, who he hasnt even raced with for 8 years. no more weird than honda fans continuing to obsess about alonso though i guess.

[diffuser]

Just curious about a rumour thats floating around, people are saying that RBPT poached alot of honda guys that designed and built the 2021-2025 engines and that basically the team thats responsible for this year's engine is basically new.
Is that true? (at least would explain how good RBR is doing rn)

This is just a bogus narrative floating around the Alonso-sphere on social media. It’s very hard to recruit people from Honda because they are on the other side of the planet and work in a different language with a different corporate culture. It’s basically the Ferrari problem on stereoids. This is why RBPT mostly targeted HPP and other forms of more local recruitment.

thats what is reported by the british media, every time they talk about hondas return. if that is what you consider "the alonso sphere", you have been deceived. sky, f1 app and multiple british f1 podcasts state that many honda employees ended up at RBPT's practically daily, and have been since they announced their return.

My understanding is that both statements are true.

To put it bluntly: Red Bull got the "Hands," while Honda kept the "Brains."
​Red Bull acquired: The assembly mechanics, the dyno technicians, and the logistics staff in Milton Keynes.
​Honda retained: The design engineers, the combustion specialists, and the software architects in Sakura.

[lio007]

This is just a bogus narrative floating around the Alonso-sphere on social media. It’s very hard to recruit people from Honda because they are on the other side of the planet and work in a different language with a different corporate culture. It’s basically the Ferrari problem on stereoids. This is why RBPT mostly targeted HPP and other forms of more local recruitment.

thats what is reported by the british media, every time they talk about hondas return. if that is what you consider "the alonso sphere", you have been deceived. sky, f1 app and multiple british f1 podcasts state that many honda employees ended up at RBPT's practically daily, and have been since they announced their return.

My understanding is that both statements are true.

To put it bluntly: Red Bull got the "Hands," while Honda kept the "Brains."
​Red Bull acquired: The assembly mechanics, the dyno technicians, and the logistics staff in Milton Keynes.
​Honda retained: The design engineers, the combustion specialists, and the software architects in Sakura.

This.

[Badger]

This is just a bogus narrative floating around the Alonso-sphere on social media. It’s very hard to recruit people from Honda because they are on the other side of the planet and work in a different language with a different corporate culture. It’s basically the Ferrari problem on stereoids. This is why RBPT mostly targeted HPP and other forms of more local recruitment.

thats what is reported by the british media, every time they talk about hondas return. if that is what you consider "the alonso sphere", you have been deceived. sky, f1 app and multiple british f1 podcasts state that many honda employees ended up at RBPT's practically daily, and have been since they announced their return.

My understanding is that both statements are true.

To put it bluntly: Red Bull got the "Hands," while Honda kept the "Brains."
​Red Bull acquired: The assembly mechanics, the dyno technicians, and the logistics staff in Milton Keynes.
​Honda retained: The design engineers, the combustion specialists, and the software architects in Sakura.

More like RBPT acquired the (mostly British based) maintenance crew for operating the engines in season. It's not like Honda sent parts to the UK for assembly, they sent finished ICE units. All the "hands" and facilities required for manufacturing the engine and the advanced assembly took place in Japan, nevermind the design and engineering.

Brain drain is simply not an excuse for Honda because there has been almost none of it. On the other hand HPP did have a lot of it, hundreds of people, and look at how they are doing. The narrative around Honda is simply excuses and coping.

[AR3-GP]

Brain drain is simply not an excuse for Honda because there has been almost none of it.

It's not brain drain in the classic sense. HRC shut down a lot of the F1 attaché. People retired, moved to other departments within Honda, and so on. So they lost quite a bit of the momentum.

[Badger]

Brain drain is simply not an excuse for Honda because there has been almost none of it.

It's not brain drain in the classic sense. HRC shut down a lot of the F1 attache. People retired, moved to other departments within Honda, and so on. So they lost quite a bit.

Yes, but that part was self-inflicted and more about shuffling people internally. The idea that the competence at Honda was acquired by RBPT and that is why they are now struggling is for the birds.