Aston Martin AMR26

[Stu]

I know some here talk down The Race's technical reporting, but this was interesting:

Honda observed abnormal vibrations that caused damage to the battery, although it is not sure whether the battery system itself is the initial problem. What Honda can see is the battery pack is being shaken because the structure it is attached to is vibrating more severely than expected.
Honda is investigating a combination of factors that likely caused these vibrations to emerge and running virtual track testing at its Sakura base with a chassis, engine and gearbox combined, but is yet to pinpoint the root cause.
"If we could identify a single cause, it would be easier to fix, but because multiple linked factors generate the vibration, we don't know whether fixing just one will solve it," said Takeishi.
Together with Aston Martin, Honda is assessing what countermeasures can be implemented on both the car and engine side - including what can be done before the season opener in Australia next weekend.
Aston Martin is willing to modify components on its car if necessary. Controlling the vibrations is critical for the engine's chances of running reliably in the early races of the season, which includes Honda's home grand prix in Japan at the end of March.
After managing the start of the season with interim measures, Honda will look to change reliability-related parts where possible within the cost cap.

The context seems to suggest the "structure the battery is attached to" refers to the front of the ICE, but is it possible Honda is referring to the chassis instead of (or as well as) the ICE? Late integration of the chassis and PU could have meant such a problem was not picked up until it was too late to resolve before testing. Pure speculation on my part.

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/hond ... dentified/

I assume there are some electronics in the battery, such as the invertor, if that is the case then mounting the battery to the engine fully or partially is crazy, electronics hate the high frequency vibrations that engines create.

The battery is housed within the chassis ‘tub’, underneath the fuel tank; so it cannot be mounted directly to the ICE.
Classically you would use copper cable with bulkhead fittings to transmit power between the ES & MGU, but this does have quite a bit of mass and bulk; if Honda have been urged to make things more compact current ‘bleeding-edge’ techniques are moving to aluminium sheet/pressings as bus-bars (reducing mass & bulk).
Something about what AN stated wrt “not being able to charge beyond 250kW, let alone 350”, suggests to me that the CSA of either cable or bus-bar are on the limit. The best aluminium to use is very soft (pure) and liable to stress-induced failure when pushed to the limit.

[Shakeman]

I find the Honda representatives communications unusually direct, this is usual for Japanese culture and an indication where they believe the issue to be.

The AMR26 is an unrestrained Newey car. I remember an interview with Newey when he was at RB lamenting that Wache and co don't listen to him. The state of AMR26 might be a good indication why?

Newey needs to fix the vibrations in his chassis.

Honda is taking flack from the Newey defence shield but would any other manufacturer's battery pack survive similar out of control vibrations? This is a fair question.

[zoroastar]

I find the Honda representatives communications unusually direct, this is usual for Japanese culture and an indication where they believe the issue to be.

The AMR26 is an unrestrained Newey car. I remember an interview with Newey when he was at RB lamenting that Wache and co don't listen to him. The state of AMR26 might be a good indication why?

Newey needs to fix the vibrations in his chassis.

Honda is taking flack from the Newey defence shield but would any other manufacturer's battery pack survive similar out of control vibrations? This is a fair question.

speculate much? so you think that hondas tone in a press release proves that neweys car is the problem and not the power unit? doesnt trying to prove honda innocent get old to you guys? perhaps the chassis or gearbox plays a part.you could at least admit that it seems incredibly similar to what happened to them in 2015, with a different team. of course, it wasnt hondas fault then either. "newey defence shield" has nothing on team honda fanboyism

[Shakeman]

I find the Honda representatives communications unusually direct, this is usual for Japanese culture and an indication where they believe the issue to be.

The AMR26 is an unrestrained Newey car. I remember an interview with Newey when he was at RB lamenting that Wache and co don't listen to him. The state of AMR26 might be a good indication why?

Newey needs to fix the vibrations in his chassis.

Honda is taking flack from the Newey defence shield but would any other manufacturer's battery pack survive similar out of control vibrations? This is a fair question.

speculate much? so you think that hondas tone in a press release proves that neweys car is the problem and not the power unit? doesnt trying to prove honda innocent get old to you guys? perhaps the chassis or gearbox plays a part.you could at least admit that it seems incredibly similar to what happened to them in 2015, with a different team. of course, it wasnt hondas fault then either. "newey defence shield" has nothing on team honda fanboyism

Speculating? Well, that's what every single person on this forum does, so your point?

Yes I do believe it is important to take in to consideration the culture and the tone in which communications are made. Any competent communications director would understand that. Corporate communications are nuanced.

BTW, Because I don't bow down at the alter of Newey does not make me a Honda fanboy.

Why were the vibrations after installation so very different to those designed and tested for on the bench?

I think the Newey acolytes have to explain why the AMR26 looks like a supermarket trolley on track too. It's all very well to say they're going to have the best chassis on the grid at some distant point in the future why not right now straight out of the wrapper?

Put yourself in Larry Stroll's shoes, the guy has spent an absolute wedge and all he has got for his money is a complete lemon. You'd need a heart of stone not to laugh.

[Brahmal]

Why were the vibrations after installation so very different to those designed and tested for on the bench?

None of us have enough information to answer that question because we don't know how the various engine manufacturers and teams are mounting their battery packs. In previous regs the battery was not directly attached to the ICE, rather it was attached to the monocoque with large cables connected to the MGUK etc. AFAIK the Honda powerpack is the only one that we have any sort of images of outside the vehicle. Their battery is right next to the ICE and MGUK and all three appear to be directly attached to each other, but we don't know for sure. And we have no imagery of the other powerpacks to provide context.

It is known that Newey requested the battery to be double-stacked, but did he ask for it to be smushed up against the ICE like this? Nobody knows. Do the engine regulations mandate that the battery be mounted in a certain location? That might be a good place to start investigating.

[Shakeman]

Why were the vibrations after installation so very different to those designed and tested for on the bench?

None of us have enough information to answer that question because we don't know how the various engine manufacturers and teams are mounting their battery packs. In previous regs the battery was not directly attached to the ICE, rather it was attached to the monocoque with large cables connected to the MGUK etc. AFAIK the Honda powerpack is the only one that we have any sort of images of outside the vehicle. Their battery is right next to the ICE and MGUK and all three appear to be directly attached to each other, but we don't know for sure. And we have no imagery of the other powerpacks to provide context.

It is known that Newey requested the battery to be double-stacked, but did he ask for it to be smushed up against the ICE like this? Nobody knows. Do the engine regulations mandate that the battery be mounted in a certain location? That might be a good place to start investigating.

It could be the new double-stacked layout was never adequately tested due to a late request to change layout. But as you say everything is 'smushed' together so how would they not see vibration issues if the ICE and MGUK were the cause? IMHO, it's more likely to be an installation issue.

There are a lot of sources of vibration in a car and who knows what resonances that may just be perfectly tuned to destroy the batteries.

Given that there were requested changes to the battery pack, to make it double-stacked, do you think it is more likely or less likely he gave them a target volume to fit the new battery pack in? Aero must come first, remember?

[Brahmal]

Given that there were requested changes to the battery pack, to make it double-stacked, do you think it is more likely or less likely he gave them a target volume to fit the new battery pack in? Aero must come first, remember?

I don't have enough information to have a strong opinion, or the time to research it properly at the moment. Gemini says:

Survival Cell Enclosure: The battery and associated control electronics must be housed within the survival cell.

Assembly Options:
- The MGU-K can be built into a single assembly with the electronics and connected to the engine via a shaft.
- The MGU-K can also be attached to the front of the engine while remaining inside the survival cell.

Take that for what it's worth. Seems to imply that the battery is not expected to attach directly to the ICE, but can be attached to the MGU-K + shaft. That was not possible under previous regs IIRC. Because the electrics have to be within the safety cell there probably isn't much freedom to moves things around, but if Newey requested the battery stack he may have also requested the side-saddle MGU-K, which seems like the prime suspect to me.

[mzso]

My takeaway from that report is that it sounds like a natural frequency issue, it could be related to the engine mounting creating a resonant frequency that is damaging the internal structure of the battery.

But resonance only happens at a particular frequency doesn't it? Which considering an ICE happens only for a split second. Is that enough to cause an issue?

Gear set drives are typically harsh in transferred frequency input, to shift that up or down dependent on ratio etc. Thats caught out the designers in many PU over the years, with mitigation or change in design to side step that eventuality.

What does this mean?

Classically you would use copper cable with bulkhead fittings to transmit power between the ES & MGU, but this does have quite a bit of mass and bulk; if Honda have been urged to make things more compact current ‘bleeding-edge’ techniques are moving to aluminium sheet/pressings as bus-bars (reducing mass & bulk).
Something about what AN stated wrt “not being able to charge beyond 250kW, let alone 350”, suggests to me that the CSA of either cable or bus-bar are on the limit. The best aluminium to use is very soft (pure) and liable to stress-induced failure when pushed to the limit.

You mean a plain aluminium bar? I guess that could transmit vibrations, but I can't imagine such a basic error as to under-size it.

The AMR26 is an unrestrained Newey car. I remember an interview with Newey when he was at RB lamenting that Wache and co don't listen to him. The state of AMR26 might be a good indication why?

Newey needs to fix the vibrations in his chassis.

Honda is taking flack from the Newey defence shield but would any other manufacturer's battery pack survive similar out of control vibrations? This is a fair question.

He claimed to argue for moderation, in making the car less peaky. That's the opposite approach to what you're suggesting.

You don't know anything about the vibration issue so it's pointless to point the finger at either side. Apart from the fact that the car was done late, so it was impossible to test with the engine beforehand.

How do you know any other engine produces near as much vibrations? Or that the chassis is to blame at transmitting it to the battery pack?

[Farnborough]

Farnborough wrote: ↑02 Mar 2026, 11:59
Gear set drives are typically harsh in transferred frequency input, to shift that up or down dependent on ratio etc. Thats caught out the designers in many PU over the years, with mitigation or change in design to side step that eventuality.

What does this mean

Gear trains are notorious for doing no favour to latent vibration and harmonics. Very tenacious in either amplifying them, and or sending them along into another area.
Often a solution (not suggesting that here) is to shift the frequency to exist outside the use profile of the device in question, such that it cannot interfere with operation.

All PU manufacturers have this as a staple in their design skill and capabilities, it can still catch out some though.

[mzso]

The battery is housed within the chassis ‘tub’, underneath the fuel tank; so it cannot be mounted directly to the ICE.

Is this certain. I found zero pictures of how a modern safety cell looks from the behind. Even it has some sort of back wall it has to have openings for the many things going through there. So the Pack could be mounted to the engine as well as the safety cell, can't it? Isn't that pretty much how the MGU-K is placed there?

[FW17]

The battery is housed within the chassis ‘tub’, underneath the fuel tank; so it cannot be mounted directly to the ICE.

Is this certain. I found zero pictures of how a modern safety cell looks from the behind. Even it has some sort of back wall it has to have openings for the many things going through there. So the Pack could be mounted to the engine as well as the safety cell, can't it? Isn't that pretty much how the MGU-K is placed there?

Sauber 2018 or 19

[AR3-GP]

Spot the updates? (Melbourne Wednesday)

[krich]

I don’t see anything new apart from no-horns

[Shakeman]

Press conference summary.

MGUK not the reason for the vibration.

Vibration so severe it's a safety issue and could lead to long term nerve damage. Lance can cope with 15 laps and Fred, 'cuz he's much harder, can cope with 25 laps.

So vibrations being transmitted to the steering wheel not just shaking the battery pack to pieces.

Nerve damage story true or a ruse to limit running?

If you look at onboards from the Bahrain test there's no visible clue of steering wheel vibrations. You'd see some effect in the fabric of the gloves. I'm calling this out as BS.

[FNTC]

From Albert Fabrega on X: