2026 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[venkyhere]

Is it safe to say that this Redbull has very good harvesting? Or is that just down to how max drives? He had at times 40% more battery available than Norris. Tough for Hadjar, I'm sure there is more to come from him.

Every car probably harvests and uses the maximum amount allowed.

The detail that you are missing is that it cost some cars more laptime than others to harvest the same amount. One of the reasons is related to a point I made in McLaren thread about downforce. Harvesting in the brake zone is the most efficient, but it is limited by the locking of the rear axle. So those cars with weaker rear axle have to push more of the harvesting to super clipping and lico which is less efficient than harvesting more in the brake zone. So it cost more laptime to get the same amount of energy.

can you elaborate what you meant by 'weaker rear axle' ?

[Emag]

Every car probably harvests and uses the maximum amount allowed.

The detail that you are missing is that it cost some cars more laptime than others to harvest the same amount. One of the reasons is related to a point I made in McLaren thread about downforce. Harvesting in the brake zone is the most efficient, but it is limited by the locking of the rear axle. So those cars with weaker rear axle have to push more of the harvesting to super clipping and lico which is less efficient than harvesting more in the brake zone. So it cost more laptime to get the same amount of energy.

can you elaborate what you meant by 'weaker rear axle' ?

I think this is somewhat related. Mercedes in particular can afford to use the mguk more aggressively for regeneration through the corners. Part of that is having a rear end that can cope with it. This probably feels like extreme engine braking. Probably very weird for the drivers.

[FittingMechanics]

Is it safe to say that this Redbull has very good harvesting? Or is that just down to how max drives? He had at times 40% more battery available than Norris. Tough for Hadjar, I'm sure there is more to come from him.

Every car probably harvests and uses the maximum amount allowed.

The detail that you are missing is that it cost some cars more laptime than others to harvest the same amount. One of the reasons is related to a point I made in McLaren thread about downforce. Harvesting in the brake zone is the most efficient, but it is limited by the locking of the rear axle. So those cars with weaker rear axle have to push more of the harvesting to super clipping and lico which is less efficient than harvesting more in the brake zone. So it cost more laptime to get the same amount of energy.

I'm not missing that (I even commented about that in my post). I'm well aware that not everyone will harvest at the same efficiency (lap time wise). However I am under the impression that all of them will maximize the harvesting because it is worth it. So maybe McLaren loses more lap time to harvest than Red Bull, but at the same time they would be even slower if they did not harvest that. That is my point.

Maybe this is not an absolute truth, maybe in some cases the "the juice isn’t worth the squeeze" and in race trim cars start to use let's say 6 MJ, but I am not sure that is the case.

I think this is somewhat related. Mercedes in particular can afford to use the mguk more aggressively for regeneration through the corners. Part of that is having a rear end that can cope with it. This probably feels like extreme engine braking. Probably very weird for the drivers.

During the race Norris was instructed to use 2nd gear in a specific corner, to help with harvesting. They told him they know it is hard (because the car is unstable)

[AR3-GP]

I'm not missing that (I even commented about that in my post). I'm well aware that not everyone will harvest at the same efficiency (lap time wise). However I am under the impression that all of them will maximize the harvesting because it is worth it. So maybe McLaren loses more lap time to harvest than Red Bull, but at the same time they would be even slower if they did not harvest that. That is my point.

I agree with you now. I misunderstood the other post. Harvesting all of the allowed energy (8MJ) is the fastest way around. Some just lose less laptime doing it for a number of reasons that can be in the PU side (power, efficiency) or the chassis side (rear locking limitations)

[Badger]

The detail that you are missing is that it cost some cars more laptime than others to harvest the same amount. One of the reasons is related to a point I made in McLaren thread about downforce. Harvesting in the brake zone is the most efficient, but it is limited by the locking of the rear axle. So those cars with weaker rear axle have to push more of the harvesting to super clipping and lico which is less efficient than harvesting more in the brake zone. So it cost more laptime to get the same amount of energy.

can you elaborate what you meant by 'weaker rear axle' ?

I think this is somewhat related. Mercedes in particular can afford to use the mguk more aggressively for regeneration through the corners. Part of that is having a rear end that can cope with it. This probably feels like extreme engine braking. Probably very weird for the drivers.

Vasseur was alluding to this, chassis and PU performance is becoming harder to distinguish.

We may see "PU" performance improvements that are really more about changes to the chassis and software that allows them to harvest more aggressively.

[venkyhere]

The detail that you are missing is that it cost some cars more laptime than others to harvest the same amount. One of the reasons is related to a point I made in McLaren thread about downforce. Harvesting in the brake zone is the most efficient, but it is limited by the locking of the rear axle. So those cars with weaker rear axle have to push more of the harvesting to super clipping and lico which is less efficient than harvesting more in the brake zone. So it cost more laptime to get the same amount of energy.

can you elaborate what you meant by 'weaker rear axle' ?

I think this is somewhat related. Mercedes in particular can afford to use the mguk more aggressively for regeneration through the corners. Part of that is having a rear end that can cope with it. This probably feels like extreme engine braking. Probably very weird for the drivers.

'more aggressive' MGU-K loading will mean easier lockup, unless there is lots of downforce (more spoon in rear wing mainplane) on the contact patch, improving the ability of rubber adhesion to resist the 'braking torque'. So we have come back to square1 -> downforce.
While at it, can you also check Ferrari for the same, I suspect with their 'more downforce' inducing rear end tricks, they should exhibit similar 'more aggressive regen in braking zone' as well.

If your theory is true, and my reasoning for it is true as well, that's more fodder for my 'souped up PU for themselves only' theory about Mercs, since more spoon in RW will mean more drag, and will negate 'mercedes is very slippery hence battery efficiency is higher' theory and double down on the cheat-PU theory.

(more spoon on Merc RW mainplane : viewtopic.php?p=1333221#p1333221)

[f1isgood]

At a very very high level is the suggestion that Mercedes with their engine advantage simply add more wings and the engine negates that additional drag? And this is something their customers cannot have?

[venkyhere]

At a very very high level is the suggestion that Mercedes with their engine advantage simply add more wings and the engine negates that additional drag? And this is something their customers cannot have?

Yes

[AR3-GP]

The difference between Mclaren and Mercedes is not just "Mercedes made a bigger spoon shape". The downforce differentiator in these regulations is the floor, how its fed with clean air, how the edge is sealed, how it's protected from tire wake, how the diffuser is expanded.

Nothing would change for Mclaren just running Mercedes wings. I also don't think it's accurate to say that Mercedes has a larger rear wing.

[venkyhere]

The difference between Mclaren and Mercedes is not just "Mercedes made a bigger spoon shape". The downforce differentiator in these regulations is the floor, how its fed with clean air, how the edge is sealed, how it's protected from tire wake, how the diffuser is expanded.

Nothing would change for Mclaren just running Mercedes wings. I also don't think it's accurate to say that Mercedes has a larger rear wing.

I was comparing Mercedes wing with Redbull/Ferrari. Mclaren and Mercedes rear wings look similar 'spoon'. Same goes with floor DF as well, more diffuser expansion/rake => more DF and more drag.
My argument was that all this ties neatly to :
- opposing the 'Mercedes are super slippery and hence have better utilization of energy with a non-cheating PU' theory ; and
- supporting the 'Mercedes have a cheat-PU specifically for themselves and dont share with customers' theory.

[Vettel165]

Amazing drive by Max he has shown some spirit. We have to improve the chassis, also lose some weight and then we can fight for the podium places. The engine is quite solid. Australia was also usually our weak track in the last years, maybe in China it will be better. The cars will gain at least 1s-1.5s from now to until the end of the season, the question is who will get there sooner. I am thinking out of top teams we have the most potential to develop, improve the car in terms of laptime. Lets take some positive out of this race, and move on its just the first race of the new regulations.

Max, Hadjar lets go, never give up, never stop believing.

[AR3-GP]

- supporting the 'Mercedes have a cheat-PU specifically for themselves and dont share with customers' theory.

this is nonsense. Let's drop it.

[avantman]

I’ve just watched onboard footages of the start. Now I wonder if Hadjar had his battery empty as well, because he had great reactions and initial getaway — far far better than anybody on the first two rows, but shortly after not only got eaten by Lec’s Ferrari that looked like a car of different class, but the Mercedes of Russell as well that was running, allegedly purely on combustion power. Even if Hadjar had the same glitch and empty battery, Mercedes ICE advantage has to be insane over RBPT.
I also got a feeling, 10 or 20 extra HP (on ICE side) is not at all the same sort of advantage under these regs, as it used to be In the past. Today, every bit of combustion Power advantage gives much more in terms of lap time than ever before.
Watch that interview of Max from 2023. He did say specifically from everything the see on the data, it looks like it’s gonna be ICE competition, ICE formula as anybody who has little power advantage will get huge benefit in terms of overall pace.

[avantman]

- supporting the 'Mercedes have a cheat-PU specifically for themselves and dont share with customers' theory.

this is nonsense. Let's drop it.

You cannot know that. Let’s stop pretending you can.

[AR3-GP]

I’ve just watched onboard footages of the start. Now I wonder if Hadjar had his battery empty as well, because he had great reactions and initial getaway — far far better than anybody on the first two rows, but shortly after not only got eaten by Lec’s Ferrari that looked like a car of different class, but the Mercedes of Russell as well that was running, allegedly purely on combustion power. Even if Hadjar had the same glitch and empty battery, Mercedes ICE advantage has to be insane over RBPT.

Hadjar confirmed that battery was empty at the start. He had the best start.

“The start was amazing,” said Hadjar. “I started the race with no battery. I had a very good launch and was taking the lead easy, so at least that’s a good point of the day, that we had very good starts. And once I thought I was going to take the lead, no more power, so that was great.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1091045/1 ... an-gp-fate

I also got a feeling, 10 or 20 extra HP (on ICE side) is not at all the same sort of advantage under these regs, as it used to be In the past. Today, every bit of combustion Power advantage gives much more in terms of lap time than ever before. Watch that interview of Max from 2023. He did say specifically from everything the see on the data, it looks like it’s gonna be ICE competition, ICE formula as anybody who has little power advantage will get huge benefit in terms of overall pace.

Agree. The ICE makes the electricity. If ICE has more power, you can harvest more electricity.