This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
The middle east is kinda on fire right now, otherwise I would just ask them to dump more oil money into the McLaren Group and just build their own engines.
Even without the trouble in the Middle East would building their own PU be viable? RBPT have done an awesome job but they needed assistance initially from Honda and now Ford.
Merc certainly won’t sell them any IP and which other car maker not already in the sport is a realistic option?
McLarens options are incredibly limited, their most realistic option and it pains me to say it, is to piss and moan to the FIA to create a rule where not only the PU is to be run in the exact same way (or how ever the rule is written) but also all info has to be shared between the works and customer teams as to how to run it at its most optimum- which in turn could annoy the PU manufacturer who then in turn decides to leave the sport and that seems to be the LAST thing Liberty Media and the FIA want hence why we are in this current situation right now
This is not a "pull the plug and fit your own engine tomorrow" kind of thing. They are in contract with Mercedes until 2030. If they feel they will be screwed over they would have to act as soon as possible. Ideally by the end of this season already if they want to be serious about it.
I don't think the facilities are the biggest problem though. That's easily done if you want to do it and have the money. The problem is poaching the right people. That's one of the reasons why RBPT is so good right now and Horner deserves some credit for that. There's a lot of experienced engineering talent in the UK already, but convincing them to jump ship is not easy.
They could even partner with Ricardo or Cosworth.
But not while the current PU regs are in place.
I think there is a possibility that McLaren explore their options for 2031 onwards (or 2030 if new regs get brought forward) if F1 goes back to simpler V8's with a more straightforward hybrid system. As looks likely at the moment.
"From success, you learn absolutely nothing. From failure and setbacks, conclusions can be drawn." - Niki Lauda
Reading some fresh reports that Mercedes customer teams didn't have the latest PU software with the new PU spec. No wonder they were all struggling with it. Mercedes have every right to drag out parity and withhold data, but it does come across a touch snidey.
No, no, it was Martin Whitmarsh's great naivety to allow Brawn to use Mercedes engines
Mercedes was looking to get into the scene in some way or another. They tried to buyout McLaren, Ron didn't want it. Brawn just happened to be there so they took that route instead. If they didn't have the Brawn option it was likely just going to delay the inevitable anyway.
Ron didn't want it because he didn't have to want it, but at the same time he wanted Mercedes to be in McLaren, to stay.
An interview with him about it came out, he was very angry with Whitmarsh.
Unfortunately, Whitmarsh ruined a lot in McLaren, Adrian Newey writes about it in his book.
Mercedes had no solution...thanks to Brawn, he found it.
No, no, it was Martin Whitmarsh's great naivety to allow Brawn to use Mercedes engines
Mercedes was looking to get into the scene in some way or another. They tried to buyout McLaren, Ron didn't want it. Brawn just happened to be there so they took that route instead. If they didn't have the Brawn option it was likely just going to delay the inevitable anyway.
he was very angry with Whitmarsh.
Unfortunately, Whitmarsh ruined a lot in McLaren, Adrian Newey writes about it in his book.
Mercedes had no solution...thanks to Brawn, he found it.
Hmm it’s interesting. Can you tell me more about that?
Reading some fresh reports that Mercedes customer teams didn't have the latest PU software with the new PU spec. No wonder they were all struggling with it. Mercedes have every right to drag out parity and withhold data, but it does come across a touch snidey.
McLaren have the same tools available but it’s up to them to use it to create deployment settings that are as good as Merc’s. Merc can’t do everything for you.
The fascinating story behind the McLaren-Mercedes split
The famous McLaren-Mercedes combination will return to the grid this season. While their partnership will no longer include close factory support, it could still help McLaren return to the top. But why did McLaren and Mercedes “split” at the end of 2014? There were two factors behind it.
After six years, the McLaren-Mercedes single-seater returns to the grid. However, it should be noted that McLaren will only be a Stuttgart customer (as it was between 2010 and 2014), not a close partner (as it was between 1995 and 2009). Daimler previously owned a 40% stake in McLaren.
The merger of McLaren and Mercedes could be the next step for the Woking team in its attempt to return to the top. But today we will not talk about what could theoretically happen and what chances McLaren has for success, but rather focus on the reasons that led to the divorce between McLaren and Mercedes.
At first glance, the McLaren-Mercedes combination seemed immortal, even at the end of the first decade of the new millennium. In reality, however, 2007 and 2008 heralded the divorce of the partnership – for two reasons. One was the McLaren espionage scandal of 2007 and the other was the economic crisis.
The whole story is indeed complex and one of the key elements was the power distribution in the then International Automobile Federation (FIA) and McLaren. While the British team was headed by the legendary Ron Dennis, who in the 80s, thanks to McLaren's successes, redefined the term "racing team", the FIA was led by Max Mosley, who belonged to the old school of so-called "autocrats". It is already clear to many that their mutual relations could not have been exactly friendly. And you are right, the two held a grudge against each other.
But why is the relationship between Mosley and Dennis so important? In 2007, Ferrari discovered that their employee Nigel Stepney was supplying McLaren with sensitive information about the development of their car. When the whole affair reached Mosley, it was clear that the FIA president would not remain idle.
The outcome of the whole affair is well known – McLaren was disqualified from the Constructors' Championship and had to pay a fine of $100 million. In addition, if McLaren broke even the slightest regulation, it could be banned from the entire championship for the next two years.
40% of the shares of the then McLaren were owned by Daimler AG, which meant that it had to cover 40% of the financial fine. Mercedes had no other choice and in fact did not even know about the affair, so it is logical that the whole affair left lasting scars on the relationship between McLaren and Mercedes. And that is not to mention the fact that McLaren, as a car manufacturer, presented the development of the McLaren MP4-12C racing car for 2010, which was to be a direct competitor to Mercedes products.
Daimler therefore had many reasons to end its cooperation with McLaren. In addition, the mutual agreement stated that Daimler would cover part of the costs of the racing drivers, but was not allowed to decide who McLaren would hire. Mercedes racing director Norbert Haug is said to have demanded that Fernando Alonso be fired after the 2007 Hungarian GP.
Daimler and Ron Dennis had many disagreements, but they also had a common enemy – Max Mosley. The then president of the FIA wanted to introduce revolutionary technical and commercial F1 rules that would favour customer teams over factory teams. At the time, this was a big deal, as many major car manufacturers (including Honda, Toyota and BMW) were competing in Formula 1.
The car manufacturers then formed a joint alliance, The Formula One Teams Association (FOTA), headed by McLaren deputy director Martin Whitmarsh. Their aim was to create a competitive Formula 1 championship if Max Mosley went too far with his revolutionary rules.
But then came 2008 and the economic crisis. Honda had suffered a 40% loss in just a few months and was starting to cut costs – the logical step was to save money on its Formula 1 team programme (the Japanese car manufacturer had won just one race in the last 8 years and its performance had declined significantly in the last two years). So, without any warning, Honda withdrew at the end of 2008, leaving behind over 700 employees in Brackley who became unemployed overnight.
That's when Ross Brawn (Honda's racing program boss) stepped in, along with Nick Fry. They would save the team if Honda would let them use the $100 million budget. But not with their engines. And that's what eventually happened, but they still had to find a new engine supplier.
Honda's departure shook the foundations of FOTA. Unconfirmed information began to leak into the media that other car manufacturers might also leave - there was talk of Ferrari, but in reality it was Toyota and BMW. Both car manufacturers left Formula 1 at the end of 2009.
The then FOTA boss Martin Whitmarsh could not afford for the car manufacturers to lose an important ally represented by the former Honda team. So when the new Brawn GP team asked for Mercedes engines, Whitmarsh - now also the boss of the McLaren team - decided not to use his veto power.
With a snap of his fingers, McLaren gave away its exclusive rights to the best power units in Formula 1. As it turned out, this was the critical moment and a huge mistake that ultimately led to the breakup of the McLaren-Mercedes marriage and the creation of the Mercedes factory team as we know it today.
It is logical that McLaren did not discuss this step in any detail at the time. The former Honda was no risk to a team that was one of the best in history. No one knew that the car, now known as the Brawn BGP01, would perform so well in the wind tunnel, while the McLaren MP4-24 racing car did the exact opposite.
No one could have predicted that Brawn GP would become a contender for the championship. Ross Brawn remembers 2009 very well: “Martin Whitmarsh wanted us to get those engines. Ron Dennis never forgave him. He thinks that’s why they lost Mercedes… And he’s right. But it’s only because they did a bad job. If McLaren had beaten us in 2009, Mercedes would never have bought us.”
Many fans will surely remember the contrasting performances of Brawn GP and McLaren in 2009. Jenson Button won six of the first seven races in the simply painted Brawn BGP01 and eventually won the championship. McLaren won only twice in the second half of the season, when their car began to show better results thanks to good development.
Mercedes, delighted with the performance of the Brawn GP team, decided to buy the successful team. For the first time since 1955, the Silver Arrows became a factory Formula 1 team again. All that remained was to resolve the share in McLaren, which Mercedes sold within two years. McLaren was now only a customer team, not a partner.
McLaren's marriage with Mercedes was thus ended not only by the solidarity of Martin Whitmarsh, but also by McLaren's poor performance in 2009. The revolutionary technical rules were another factor that played an important role. McLaren’s then chief engineer Paddy Lowe recalls the development of the car.
“The aerodynamics team had set out to achieve half the downforce of 2006,” Lowe recalls. “The 2008 car had a lift coefficient of 3.5 to 3.6. The 2009 car was only 1.5.”
“Our aim was to achieve 2.5. We were worried when Ross Brawn warned in February that his team had reached 2.5. But we all thought it must be the result of a calibration error.”
Nick Fry recalls in his book how Ron Dennis called him in early 2009 and asked for Ross Brawn’s phone number.
The McLaren boss “wanted to know how good our aerodynamic package was and what numbers we were seeing in wind tunnel testing,” recalls Fry.
Although Fry admitted that “requesting data from a rival team is just not a question you would normally ask,” he decided to share the information with Dennis, who responded with “stunned silence.”
Reading some fresh reports that Mercedes customer teams didn't have the latest PU software with the new PU spec. No wonder they were all struggling with it. Mercedes have every right to drag out parity and withhold data, but it does come across a touch snidey.
McLaren have the same tools available but it’s up to them to use it to create deployment settings that are as good as Merc’s. Merc can’t do everything for you.
The point at he moment is that Mclaren do not have the same tools. You're getting a bit confused dear. Pay attention.
Reading some fresh reports that Mercedes customer teams didn't have the latest PU software with the new PU spec. No wonder they were all struggling with it. Mercedes have every right to drag out parity and withhold data, but it does come across a touch snidey.
McLaren have the same tools available but it’s up to them to use it to create deployment settings that are as good as Merc’s. Merc can’t do everything for you.
The point at he moment is that Mclaren do not have the same tools. You're getting a bit confused dear. Pay attention.
No need to get upset. McLaren have the same settings available they just made different choices with their mappings that turned out to be not as good.
McLaren confirms major delay to MCL40 upgrades ahead of F1 Chinese GP
Technical Director for Applied Technology, Neil Houldley gave an honest debrief of McLaren’s struggles at Albert Park, highlighting the data gathered.
“We have gathered and analysed lots of data across multiple areas since the MCL40 first took to the track in January’s shakedown, and last weekend’s first race of the season in Australia provided the team with further valuable information as we continue our journey of development and learning under the new regulations,” he said.
“To see the car in various scenarios under racing conditions for the first time was a good opportunity for new knowledge progression, and we understand that there is still a lot to do as we continue to work hard to further exploit the performance of the power unit while also putting additional focus on areas such as improving grip in corners."
“The next few races will continue to see this focus in place as we look to extract the maximum performance from our current configuration. "
“There is a lot of effort by the team, both trackside and in Woking, to develop the car, but we are aware that this will take a few more races to be in a position to bring any major upgrades to the track."
“Therefore, going into this weekend’s Chinese Grand Prix, we have collectively taken all of our learnings from Melbourne and regrouped as a team together with our HPP partners to make sure that we deliver as much performance as possible to put the team in a strong competitive position for opportunities in both Saturday’s Sprint race and Sunday’s grand prix.”
Reading some fresh reports that Mercedes customer teams didn't have the latest PU software with the new PU spec. No wonder they were all struggling with it. Mercedes have every right to drag out parity and withhold data, but it does come across a touch snidey.
McLaren have the same tools available but it’s up to them to use it to create deployment settings that are as good as Merc’s. Merc can’t do everything for you.
Not entirely, Mercedes have the engine data from all 4 teams, they get to analyse everything, but share nothing.
Plus the hundreds of hour of dyno testing, hand in glove integration and optimisation from the very beginning, its not a fair fight, maybe next season will be different but they are too far behind to close up this year.
Mclaren need to keep an eye on the situation with Mercedes potentially buying a stake in Alpine. That will almost certainly mean that Mclaren will need to look for a new engine partner.
As you know, Mercedes discussed dropping a customer team because it's not profitable. It's easy to understand why Mclaren would be on the chopping block if Toto buys into Alpine:
Williams has long time Toto partner in crime, James Vowles.
Alpine would be Mercedes junior team.
Mclaren -> odd man out.
If Horner buys into Alpine, then Alpine will be the team that gets dropped.
Mclaren could probably go to Audi. Mclaren-Audi seems okay.
Screw Audi... They are the reason we have these Idiotic Engine rules. F1 must move away from EU car companies asap.
Honda are also a reason for these PU rules.
Should F1 move away from European AND Asian car companies and just use.... Presumably American ones??
Never mind that the vast majority of the sport's teams and staff are in Europe. That several of the biggest car companies in the world are Asian and European?
Your comment makes no sense at all.
Move away from all car manufacturers. EU are just much worse than the others with Electrical BS.
There are more than enough engine suppliers worldwide to make F1 great again.
If the car manufacturers want to be in F1 it must be on F1's terms. Money/Greed and Corruption are just too prevalent in these big corporations.
Screw Audi... They are the reason we have these Idiotic Engine rules. F1 must move away from EU car companies asap.
Honda are also a reason for these PU rules.
Should F1 move away from European AND Asian car companies and just use.... Presumably American ones??
Never mind that the vast majority of the sport's teams and staff are in Europe. That several of the biggest car companies in the world are Asian and European?
Your comment makes no sense at all.
Move away from all car manufacturers. EU are just much worse than the others with Electrical BS.
There are more than enough engine suppliers worldwide to make F1 great again.
If the car manufacturers want to be in F1 it must be on F1's terms. Money/Greed and Corruption are just too prevalent in these big corporations.
McLaren have the same tools available but it’s up to them to use it to create deployment settings that are as good as Merc’s. Merc can’t do everything for you.
The point at he moment is that Mclaren do not have the same tools. You're getting a bit confused dear. Pay attention.
No need to get upset. McLaren have the same settings available they just made different choices with their mappings that turned out to be not as good.
Ok dear you know better than McLaren and Mercedes so we should all ignore what has been said by them and everyone here for the past 100 pages. Any more great insights go ahead
Screw Audi... They are the reason we have these Idiotic Engine rules. F1 must move away from EU car companies asap.
Honda are also a reason for these PU rules.
Should F1 move away from European AND Asian car companies and just use.... Presumably American ones??
Never mind that the vast majority of the sport's teams and staff are in Europe. That several of the biggest car companies in the world are Asian and European?
Your comment makes no sense at all.
Move away from all car manufacturers. EU are just much worse than the others with Electrical BS.
There are more than enough engine suppliers worldwide to make F1 great again.
If the car manufacturers want to be in F1 it must be on F1's terms. Money/Greed and Corruption are just too prevalent in these big corporations.
Reading some fresh reports that Mercedes customer teams didn't have the latest PU software with the new PU spec. No wonder they were all struggling with it. Mercedes have every right to drag out parity and withhold data, but it does come across a touch snidey.
McLaren have the same tools available but it’s up to them to use it to create deployment settings that are as good as Merc’s. Merc can’t do everything for you.
Not entirely, Mercedes have the engine data from all 4 teams, they get to analyse everything, but share nothing.
Plus the hundreds of hour of dyno testing, hand in glove integration and optimisation from the very beginning, its not a fair fight, maybe next season will be different but they are too far behind to close up this year.
None of which has anything to do with PU software specifications. Those are simply the advantages you get by being a manufacturer and supplier. But it's the same engine with the same software, any setting Mercedes can program so can their customers.
Remember this was the claim of the person I originally responded to.
Reading some fresh reports that Mercedes customer teams didn't have the latest PU software with the new PU spec.
