Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[API]

Because the important info came out in interviews / press conferences rather than press releases (which is more the style of the team websites), but then you're at the whim of the reporting which sometimes misses the nuances, to the point where what's fact, an informed guss and complete conjecture, is hard to disentangle. Hence if you're really interested you try to look at a whole bunch of sites, take into account their reliability, and skim the forums as well to see what else other people have found (sometimes someone kind who speaks Japanese will translate directly, instead of relying on machine translation, yes ispano6 does this sometimes if there's something particularly worth mentioning).

Anyway, maybe ispano6 could name the main few Japanese f1 sites, and how reliable they are in their opinion? That would be interesting. Probably about as reliable as the non-Japanese ones, but maybe they get the odd bit of info or quotes that aren't seen elsewhere, just wondering.

I stopped translating for this forum for several reasons. It took a nose-dive in terms of the quality of the technical talk and became a place for cry babies. Even if I did provide the sites, they would be mistranslated and misinterpretted by the same perpetrators. The fact is, these people jump to conclusions and treat fact from heresay and secondary/tertiary sources. You know the quality of the poster when they accuse Honda of not knowing what they are doing. Why are we allowing such talk on this technical forum?

If everyone had the same approach as Honda when entering F1 repeatedly, there wouldn't even be a race for the first six months.

What's happening is not a coincidence.

[diffuser]

Because the important info came out in interviews / press conferences rather than press releases (which is more the style of the team websites), but then you're at the whim of the reporting which sometimes misses the nuances, to the point where what's fact, an informed guss and complete conjecture, is hard to disentangle. Hence if you're really interested you try to look at a whole bunch of sites, take into account their reliability, and skim the forums as well to see what else other people have found (sometimes someone kind who speaks Japanese will translate directly, instead of relying on machine translation, yes ispano6 does this sometimes if there's something particularly worth mentioning).

Anyway, maybe ispano6 could name the main few Japanese f1 sites, and how reliable they are in their opinion? That would be interesting. Probably about as reliable as the non-Japanese ones, but maybe they get the odd bit of info or quotes that aren't seen elsewhere, just wondering.

I stopped translating for this forum for several reasons. It took a nose-dive in terms of the quality of the technical talk and became a place for cry babies. Even if I did provide the sites, they would be mistranslated and misinterpretted by the same perpetrators. The fact is, these people jump to conclusions and treat fact from heresay and secondary/tertiary sources. You know the quality of the poster when they accuse Honda of not knowing what they are doing. Why are we allowing such talk on this technical forum?

If everyone had the same approach as Honda when entering F1 repeatedly, there wouldn't even be a race for the first six months.

What's happening is not a coincidence.

I think that there is a good chance that people are jumping to conclusions. There is a strong possibilities that the vibrations are indirectly caused by Newey joining late. Newey joining late could NOT be helped. That then led to the late changes that then led to the vibrations. Then are taking what was said by Honda about the combustion as a given that the PU is down on power by a lot. There is no evidence of that they are low on power. They have not even tried to run the PU at full power nor have they tried to tune it to get the max out of it. That all comes out of the vibrations which in turn have caused the perfect storm that held everything else back. Think we need to wait and see.

[API]

Shown is valid!!!

I'm not saying that everything is
Honda's fault.
But she definitely wasn't ready.

Hopefully they'll make it available for purchase soon.
Finally, if they use AUDUO, it will be clear.

[diffuser]

Shown is valid!!!

I'm not saying that everything is
Honda's fault.
But she definitely wasn't ready.

Hopefully they'll make it available for purchase soon.
Finally, if they use AUDUO, it will be clear.

you ether didn't read what I wrote or didn't understand it. so repeat it here and clear it up. ..

I think there is a good chance that people are jumping to conclusions. There is a strong possibility that the vibrations are indirectly caused by Newey joining late. His late arrival could not be helped. He then made changes later in the process, which may have led a quick change by Honda and then to the vibrations.

People are also taking what Honda said about the combustion as proof that the power unit is significantly down on power compared to other teams. However, there is no evidence that they are low on power. They have not even tried to run the PU at full power, nor have they attempted to tune it to get the maximum performance out of it.

So, the late changes may have led to vibrations, which in turn created the perfect storm: very little running, which held everything else back. I think we need to wait and see.

At any rate it isn't gonna change anything to point fingers at Honda.

[mzso]

People are also taking what Honda said about the combustion as proof that the power unit is significantly down on power compared to other teams. However, there is no evidence that they are low on power. They have not even tried to run the PU at full power, nor have they attempted to tune it to get the maximum performance out of it.

I think Newey saying they are low on power counts as evidence.

[diffuser]

People are also taking what Honda said about the combustion as proof that the power unit is significantly down on power compared to other teams. However, there is no evidence that they are low on power. They have not even tried to run the PU at full power, nor have they attempted to tune it to get the maximum performance out of it.

I think Newey saying they are low on power counts as evidence.

Newey said that, based on Honda's admission, they weren't going to meet their own power targets. However, I don't know how those targets align with the targets of the other PU manufacturers, or whether those manufacturers met their own targets.

The compression ratio (CR) and combustion issues were problems all teams were facing. It's related to the fuel and CR restrictions. The rollback of the CR regulation must have had an effect on Mercedes' power.

Even though the new regulation will not be enforced until June, they can't change the ICE between now and then. That means they had to make a change to meet the 16:1 CR at 130°C before the season began.

Even if we are down on power, we don't know by how much. We also don't know yet whether we can release a new version for June or July, or how much of an improvement it might bring.

[mzso]

Newey said that, based on Honda's admission, they weren't going to meet their own power targets. However, I don't know how those targets align with the targets of the other PU manufacturers, or whether those manufacturers met their own targets.

He also said that "it's clear that a very large step in combustion engine power is needed for 27". Meaning whatever they can achieve next year won't near be enough. So that's not encouraging.

The compression ratio (CR) and combustion issues were problems all teams were facing. It's related to the fuel and CR restrictions. The rollback of the CR regulation must have had an effect on Mercedes' power.

Even though the new regulation will not be enforced until June, they can't change the ICE between now and then. That means they had to make a change to meet the 16:1 CR at 130°C before the season began.

Since the decision was made very recently. I don't think anything has changed. I'm also doubtful that the 130°C test will have any notable effect. Maybe that's why they agreed so easily. They might not need to change anything or only tweak the material used slightly. (Assuming the trick actually exists an it's not just a media hoax)
How high are the temperatures of cylinder walls are expected to be? I would think several hundred Celsius at least.

I don't know what regulations apply. But it would be very surprising that if the FIA would force a reg change and then wouldn't allow the manufacturers to modify the engine to become legal to those. Forcing them to use the freshly illegal engine just to get disqualified all the time or not race at all is a ridiculous scenario, even for the FIA.

[FW17]

This person says the vibration frequency is 5 hz, is there any other source for it.

[dren]

This person says the vibration frequency is 5 hz, is there any other source for it.

Should be putting the drivers to sleep, then.

[diffuser]

Newey said that, based on Honda's admission, they weren't going to meet their own power targets. However, I don't know how those targets align with the targets of the other PU manufacturers, or whether those manufacturers met their own targets.

He also said that "it's clear that a very large step in combustion engine power is needed for 27". Meaning whatever they can achieve next year won't near be enough. So that's not encouraging.

The compression ratio (CR) and combustion issues were problems all teams were facing. It's related to the fuel and CR restrictions. The rollback of the CR regulation must have had an effect on Mercedes' power.

Even though the new regulation will not be enforced until June, they can't change the ICE between now and then. That means they had to make a change to meet the 16:1 CR at 130°C before the season began.

Since the decision was made very recently. I don't think anything has changed. I'm also doubtful that the 130°C test will have any notable effect. Maybe that's why they agreed so easily. They might not need to change anything or only tweak the material used slightly. (Assuming the trick actually exists an it's not just a media hoax)
How high are the temperatures of cylinder walls are expected to be? I would think several hundred Celsius at least.

I don't know what regulations apply. But it would be very surprising that if the FIA would force a reg change and then wouldn't allow the manufacturers to modify the engine to become legal to those. Forcing them to use the freshly illegal engine just to get disqualified all the time or not race at all is a ridiculous scenario, even for the FIA.

The only reason for testing at 130°C is because metal expands from ambient temperature. The thinking is that someone may have found a way to exaggerate expansion in specific areas to increase the compression ratio (CR) beyond the 16:1 limit. They haven’t said yet exactly how they will test this, so I think the May 31st date gives them time to finalize the testing procedure.

You are correct. I think Mercedes could build the same homologated parts with slightly different clearances:
- piston deck height
- head gasket tolerance
- piston crown machining tolerance

This would slightly increase the clearance volume, reducing CR. So maybe they are benefiting from an increased CR right now—at least until June.

By the way, Mercedes didn’t exactly comply easily. Since the vote didn’t require Mercedes’ approval to pass, what would have been the point of them opposing it? Remember, the vote requires something like four manufacturers, the FIA, and Liberty to approve it. I also think the manufacturers already knew what the regulation change would be before it was published—they did vote on it, after all.

I’m not sure how to use the statement “it’s clear that a very large step in combustion engine power is needed for ’27” to compare it to other ICEs. I'd be surprised that other PU manufacturers wouldn't just say the same thing. It doesn’t change the fact that we still have to wait and see:
1 - What the ICE will be like when it reaches the level it should have been at on day one.
2 - If it’s still low, whether they qualify for ADIO and how much they would receive.
3 - Since they’re spending so many resources on solving the vibration issues, are they doing anything on combustion performance in parallel? Will there even be a point for Honda to release a new homologation of the ICE?

[mzso]

The only reason for testing at 130°C is because metal expands from ambient temperature. The thinking is that someone may have found a way to exaggerate expansion in specific areas to increase the compression ratio (CR) beyond the 16:1 limit. They haven’t said yet exactly how they will test this, so I think the May 31st date gives them time to finalize the testing procedure.

Well they said that it will have to satisfy 16:1 at 130°C. Doesn't really matter how they do it. If the purported chamber closes at 135 then everything is fine.

You are correct. I think Mercedes could build the same homologated parts with slightly different clearances:
- piston deck height
- head gasket tolerance
- piston crown machining tolerance

This would slightly increase the clearance volume, reducing CR. So maybe they are benefiting from an increased CR right now—at least until June.

I mean, surely there's allowance to change things to make them compliant with regulations. Homologated or not. Theoretically someone could get caught out by the sudden regulation change even if they didn't design the engine to increase in CR in any way when it's hot, but might get 16.01:1 or something at 130°C.

I’m not sure how to use the statement “it’s clear that a very large step in combustion engine power is needed for ’27” to compare it to other ICEs. I'd be surprised that other PU manufacturers wouldn't just say the same thing. It doesn’t change the fact that we still have to wait and see:
1 - What the ICE will be like when it reaches the level it should have been at on day one.
2 - If it’s still low, whether they qualify for ADIO and how much they would receive.
3 - Since they’re spending so many resources on solving the vibration issues, are they doing anything on combustion performance in parallel? Will there even be a point for Honda to release a new homologation of the ICE?

To me the implication is clear. He expects even if the vibration issue is fully fixed and the engine is tuned to its max potential, a "very large step" is still needed to reach the competition. Whether he is right or not is of course unknown.

[PlatinumZealot]

Honda is fixing the vibrations in the motor and better cushioning the batter for Japan. Then they run the PU at full power and check for vibrations. The major steps are a simple as that.

Next time Honda should not be so quick to disband its specialist engineers to other departments.

[xtreme26]

Long time lurker, huge Honda fan, pretty disappointed to see what’s happening so far. Hope Wazari (sp?) can give insight as to what’s going on

[ispano6]

There is no reason to believe that they wouldn't have experienced these issues with the "old guard".

Having the old guard back is to help the young engineers find the solutions to these new challenges and also likely to reassure Newey and Stroll they are serious and won't waste time.

I'm cheering for AMRH to be like Toro Rosso was. Take it one race at a time and give the TEAM motivation to get heads down and working on solutions.

ICE output requires the further development of lubricants and fuels so Aramco, Valvoline and Honda need to work on extracting more energy from combustion design.

[velizare]

Honda is fixing the vibrations in the motor and better cushioning the batter for Japan. Then they run the PU at full power and check for vibrations. The major steps are a simple as that.

Next time Honda should not be so quick to disband its specialist engineers to other departments.

nay. its a waste of resources to keep highly qualified personel unemployed for years. there was no point to leave them on a dead project without goals. its common sense to find them something they can work. the shame actually is the f1 pu project had no power to gather them back. this means for me the honda corporate leadership is not commited for f1 on the same level they were previously.