Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[diffuser]

Negative

That is what is so great about what MB is doing just like they understood the new rules better than all the rest in 2014.

All that is known now is the fact the MB is over 16-1 CR and that is only because an ex-MB Employee told his new team that they are.
He legally can't say how.

That MERC PU are over 16:1 CR isn't a fact, it is suspected. It would only be a fact if someone measured it to be greater than 16:1 and nobody has. I doubt that member had proof.

Not sure what "Negative" is for.

[Ferry]

If the compression ratio (CR) is tested at that temperature—meaning it can be checked at any point during the race—and the CR is ≤ 16:1, how could they increase it without the sensor detecting it? No matter what they do, the sensor would pick it up.

What kind of sensor can measure the geometric compression ratio during a race?

[gansaraku]

If the compression ratio (CR) is tested at that temperature—meaning it can be checked at any point during the race—and the CR is ≤ 16:1, how could they increase it without the sensor detecting it? No matter what they do, the sensor would pick it up.

What kind of sensor can measure the geometric compression ratio during a race?

Geometry cannot be measured directly by a sensor, but cylinder volume can be inferred from pressure, temperature and mass flow data. The reconstructed P–V curve allows estimation of the effective (apparent) compression ratio.

Enviado desde mi M2007J3SG mediante Tapatalk

[diffuser]

If the compression ratio (CR) is tested at that temperature—meaning it can be checked at any point during the race—and the CR is ≤ 16:1, how could they increase it without the sensor detecting it? No matter what they do, the sensor would pick it up.

What kind of sensor can measure the geometric compression ratio during a race?

The same ones all the PU Manufacturers have been running since 2015.

[mzso]

If the compression ratio (CR) is tested at that temperature—meaning it can be checked at any point during the race—and the CR is ≤ 16:1, how could they increase it without the sensor detecting it? No matter what they do, the sensor would pick it up.

What kind of sensor can measure the geometric compression ratio during a race?

The same ones all the PU Manufacturers have been running since 2015.

Wasn't one of Honda's chagrins that the pressure sensor they relied on to time combustions was banned for these regulations?

Here’s the thing: My understanding of the 130°C test is that 130°C is the coolant temperature at normal operating conditions. If the compression ratio (CR) is tested at that temperature—meaning it can be checked at any point during the race—and the CR is ≤ 16:1, how could they increase it without the sensor detecting it? No matter what they do, the sensor would pick it up.

I don't remember in the FIA's text that they would measure it at the race, or with the engine running at all. Nor did they mention coolant temperature. Only that the temperature they would measure at would be 130°C.

[diffuser]

What kind of sensor can measure the geometric compression ratio during a race?

The same ones all the PU Manufacturers have been running since 2015.

Wasn't one of Honda's chagrins that the pressure sensor they relied on to time combustions was banned for these regulations?

Here’s the thing: My understanding of the 130°C test is that 130°C is the coolant temperature at normal operating conditions. If the compression ratio (CR) is tested at that temperature—meaning it can be checked at any point during the race—and the CR is ≤ 16:1, how could they increase it without the sensor detecting it? No matter what they do, the sensor would pick it up.

I don't remember in the FIA's text that they would measure it at the race, or with the engine running at all. Nor did they mention coolant temperature. Only that the temperature they would measure at would be 130°C.

It wasn't banned, manufacturers had been using the sensor as a knock sensor to get to the high CRs they were getting in the previous regs. Changing the CR to 16:1 would have made irrelevant.
No, they haven't said how they're gonna measure it. Using the pressure sensor is a guess on my part. That's why I wrote "My understanding".

[Ferry]

The same ones all the PU Manufacturers have been running since 2015.

So GCR is measured with a pressure sensor, while running?

[diffuser]

The same ones all the PU Manufacturers have been running since 2015.

So GCR is measured with a pressure sensor, while running?

There was youtube video presentation in 2022 by Pat Symonds, the link is somewhere in these pages. I forget where he was presenting. He said, I'm paraphrasing here, that the pressure sensor was being used to prevent knock, it was expensive and they wanted to do away with it for that reason.

found it ...

[mzso]

The same ones all the PU Manufacturers have been running since 2015.

Wasn't one of Honda's chagrins that the pressure sensor they relied on to time combustions was banned for these regulations?

Here’s the thing: My understanding of the 130°C test is that 130°C is the coolant temperature at normal operating conditions. If the compression ratio (CR) is tested at that temperature—meaning it can be checked at any point during the race—and the CR is ≤ 16:1, how could they increase it without the sensor detecting it? No matter what they do, the sensor would pick it up.

I don't remember in the FIA's text that they would measure it at the race, or with the engine running at all. Nor did they mention coolant temperature. Only that the temperature they would measure at would be 130°C.

It wasn't banned, manufacturers had been using the sensor as a knock sensor to get to the high CRs they were getting in the previous regs. Changing the CR to 16:1 would have made irrelevant.
No, they haven't said how they're gonna measure it. Using the pressure sensor is a guess on my part. That's why I wrote "My understanding".

Here's what was said:

It wasn't just the compression ratio. During the process of changing the compression ratio, another technology was also effectively killed off, which was painful for Honda: the ban on in-cylinder pressure sensors. An in-cylinder pressure sensor monitors the conditions inside each cylinder. LPL Kakuda explained its importance:

"We used in-cylinder pressure sensors to control the ignition timing. Monitoring them allowed us to see the limit—'If we retard the ignition timing any further, it's going to be a problem.' By watching the sensors, we could retard the ignition timing to the very edge just before knocking occurred."

"They were also useful for reliability. They greatly contributed to accurately reading how much longer we could run under high internal pressure."

Other manufacturers didn't have compression ratios as high as Honda, so they didn't need to use in-cylinder pressure sensors. Additionally, these sensors were very expensive, which also drew resentment from rivals.

"Not being able to use those sensors likely increases the risk of troubles occurring that we haven't seen before." (LPL Kakuda)

It's (deepseek) AI translated because I can't do better. (A Japanese speaker might confirm or deny) At least it seems to get the names right, no mysterious Satoshi Tsunoda referenced.

Based on this it seems like they removed the pressure sensor, and Honda leaned a lot on it.

[diffuser]

Wasn't one of Honda's chagrins that the pressure sensor they relied on to time combustions was banned for these regulations?


I don't remember in the FIA's text that they would measure it at the race, or with the engine running at all. Nor did they mention coolant temperature. Only that the temperature they would measure at would be 130°C.

It wasn't banned, manufacturers had been using the sensor as a knock sensor to get to the high CRs they were getting in the previous regs. Changing the CR to 16:1 would have made irrelevant.
No, they haven't said how they're gonna measure it. Using the pressure sensor is a guess on my part. That's why I wrote "My understanding".

Here's what was said:

It wasn't just the compression ratio. During the process of changing the compression ratio, another technology was also effectively killed off, which was painful for Honda: the ban on in-cylinder pressure sensors. An in-cylinder pressure sensor monitors the conditions inside each cylinder. LPL Kakuda explained its importance:

"We used in-cylinder pressure sensors to control the ignition timing. Monitoring them allowed us to see the limit—'If we retard the ignition timing any further, it's going to be a problem.' By watching the sensors, we could retard the ignition timing to the very edge just before knocking occurred."

"They were also useful for reliability. They greatly contributed to accurately reading how much longer we could run under high internal pressure."

Other manufacturers didn't have compression ratios as high as Honda, so they didn't need to use in-cylinder pressure sensors. Additionally, these sensors were very expensive, which also drew resentment from rivals.

"Not being able to use those sensors likely increases the risk of troubles occurring that we haven't seen before." (LPL Kakuda)

It's (deepseek) AI translated because I can't do better. (A Japanese speaker might confirm or deny) At least it seems to get the names right, no mysterious Satoshi Tsunoda referenced.

Based on this it seems like they removed the pressure sensor, and Honda leaned a lot on it.

Thx, I didn't know that they were banned. Interesting article... Doesn't mean they can't bring them back to measure CR.

[Bill]

It wasn't banned, manufacturers had been using the sensor as a knock sensor to get to the high CRs they were getting in the previous regs. Changing the CR to 16:1 would have made irrelevant.
No, they haven't said how they're gonna measure it. Using the pressure sensor is a guess on my part. That's why I wrote "My understanding".

Here's what was said:

It wasn't just the compression ratio. During the process of changing the compression ratio, another technology was also effectively killed off, which was painful for Honda: the ban on in-cylinder pressure sensors. An in-cylinder pressure sensor monitors the conditions inside each cylinder. LPL Kakuda explained its importance:

"We used in-cylinder pressure sensors to control the ignition timing. Monitoring them allowed us to see the limit—'If we retard the ignition timing any further, it's going to be a problem.' By watching the sensors, we could retard the ignition timing to the very edge just before knocking occurred."

"They were also useful for reliability. They greatly contributed to accurately reading how much longer we could run under high internal pressure."

Other manufacturers didn't have compression ratios as high as Honda, so they didn't need to use in-cylinder pressure sensors. Additionally, these sensors were very expensive, which also drew resentment from rivals.

"Not being able to use those sensors likely increases the risk of troubles occurring that we haven't seen before." (LPL Kakuda)

It's (deepseek) AI translated because I can't do better. (A Japanese speaker might confirm or deny) At least it seems to get the names right, no mysterious Satoshi Tsunoda referenced.

Based on this it seems like they removed the pressure sensor, and Honda leaned a lot on it.

Thx, I didn't know that they were banned. Interesting article... Doesn't mean they can't bring them back to measure CR.

Thats the problem with motorsport in general whenever the japanese use fancy electronics in motorsport they get banned to drag them to the level of europeans competitors for example in moto gp yamaha and honda used fancy electronics as their competitive advantage but were banned for a common ecu,europeans are good in in aero and vehicle dynamics the japanese are good at electronics and asia as a whole have thriving electronics industry so i think they should leave thing as they are rather than meddle to give one side an advantage.but do you really need a fancy pressure sensor when compression rations are low

[diffuser]

Here's what was said:




It's (deepseek) AI translated because I can't do better. (A Japanese speaker might confirm or deny) At least it seems to get the names right, no mysterious Satoshi Tsunoda referenced.

Based on this it seems like they removed the pressure sensor, and Honda leaned a lot on it.

Thx, I didn't know that they were banned. Interesting article... Doesn't mean they can't bring them back to measure CR.

Thats the problem with motorsport in general whenever the japanese use fancy electronics in motorsport they get banned to drag them to the level of europeans competitors for example in moto gp yamaha and honda used fancy electronics as their competitive advantage but were banned for a common ecu,europeans are good in in aero and vehicle dynamics the japanese are good at electronics and asia as a whole have thriving electronics industry so i think they should leave thing as they are rather than meddle to give one side an advantage.but do you really need a fancy pressure sensor when compression rations are low

That is an incorrect assumption on your part that other teams were NOT doing the same thing. You're not reading or watching what else goes on here. The link I provided before from Pat suggested it was wide spread.

[GhostF1]

It wasn't banned, manufacturers had been using the sensor as a knock sensor to get to the high CRs they were getting in the previous regs. Changing the CR to 16:1 would have made irrelevant.
No, they haven't said how they're gonna measure it. Using the pressure sensor is a guess on my part. That's why I wrote "My understanding".

Here's what was said:

It wasn't just the compression ratio. During the process of changing the compression ratio, another technology was also effectively killed off, which was painful for Honda: the ban on in-cylinder pressure sensors. An in-cylinder pressure sensor monitors the conditions inside each cylinder. LPL Kakuda explained its importance:

"We used in-cylinder pressure sensors to control the ignition timing. Monitoring them allowed us to see the limit—'If we retard the ignition timing any further, it's going to be a problem.' By watching the sensors, we could retard the ignition timing to the very edge just before knocking occurred."

"They were also useful for reliability. They greatly contributed to accurately reading how much longer we could run under high internal pressure."

Other manufacturers didn't have compression ratios as high as Honda, so they didn't need to use in-cylinder pressure sensors. Additionally, these sensors were very expensive, which also drew resentment from rivals.

"Not being able to use those sensors likely increases the risk of troubles occurring that we haven't seen before." (LPL Kakuda)

It's (deepseek) AI translated because I can't do better. (A Japanese speaker might confirm or deny) At least it seems to get the names right, no mysterious Satoshi Tsunoda referenced.

Based on this it seems like they removed the pressure sensor, and Honda leaned a lot on it.

Thx, I didn't know that they were banned. Interesting article... Doesn't mean they can't bring them back to measure CR.

Yeah, the literature is a little vague. It mentions they aren't explicitly banned, but somehow they can't be used in the way they were previously? I'm not sure, whatever it is it's restricted Honda, those sensors not being available to them (as they were used previously) is a huge part of the equation as to why their rapid combustion technique is not salvageable, at least in the early stages of these regs. They've lost all ability to monitor, to the degree required, the combustion stability for it, let alone manage to have it function consistently at the lower CR. I remember early iterations of it, they even had issues keeping it stable when the rpm dropped suddenly during gearshifts. Detailed chamber pressure monitoring became essential.

We don't know what the others were doing previous regs, but the avenue Honda took, the door has been slammed shut. Effectively have to start again.

[mzso]

That is an incorrect assumption on your part that other teams were NOT doing the same thing. You're not reading or watching what else goes on here. The link I provided before from Pat suggested it was wide spread.

Well, he says other's didn't have to rely on it, because they didn't have as high compression ratios. I don't know what is true of course.

[diffuser]

That is an incorrect assumption on your part that other teams were NOT doing the same thing. You're not reading or watching what else goes on here. The link I provided before from Pat suggested it was wide spread.

Well, he says other's didn't have to rely on it, because they didn't have as high compression ratios. I don't know what is true of course.

In that Pat Symonds presentation, he is asked if "they" are using pressure sensors and he says yes they are.