Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[diffuser]

The test will be futile.
The other manufacturers have a pretty good idea what MB is doing but do not know the how.
Welcome to the new world of Nano Processes and 3D Printing Manufacturing.

Isn't there a 2 fold problem there? Increasing the CR is one part. Controlling knock is another or do they just pull back the timing advance to a safe value and still keep an edge cause of the increased compression?

[mzso]

The test will be futile.
The other manufacturers have a pretty good idea what MB is doing but do not know the how.
Welcome to the new world of Nano Processes and 3D Printing Manufacturing.

The piston is the hottest part isn't it? Couldn't that be made to have a magnified expansion in a controlled direction?

[diffuser]

The test will be futile.
The other manufacturers have a pretty good idea what MB is doing but do not know the how.
Welcome to the new world of Nano Processes and 3D Printing Manufacturing.

The piston is the hottest part isn't it? Couldn't that be made to have a magnified expansion in a controlled direction?

Pistons have to made from 1 of 4 aluminum alloys Al 2618, 2219, 4032, or 2040.

Chatgpt says...
Technically: Yes, all four alloys can be 3D printed using advanced LPBF or DED systems.
Practically: Achieving F1-grade mechanical properties (high fatigue strength, tight tolerances, and low porosity) is extremely difficult. Most teams would still rely on forged pistons or precision castings, because 3D printing these alloys at piston scale is still cutting-edge and risky for reliability under 150–200 bar combustion pressures.

[Tommy Cookers]

F1 pistons have since 2014 been made from steel aka in FIA-speak 'iron alloys'

[diffuser]

The test will be futile.
The other manufacturers have a pretty good idea what MB is doing but do not know the how.
Welcome to the new world of Nano Processes and 3D Printing Manufacturing.

The piston is the hottest part isn't it? Couldn't that be made to have a magnified expansion in a controlled direction?

Pistons have to made from 1 of 4 aluminum alloys Al 2618, 2219, 4032, or 2040.

Chatgpt says...
Technically: Yes, all four alloys can be 3D printed using advanced LPBF or DED systems.
Practically: Achieving F1-grade mechanical properties (high fatigue strength, tight tolerances, and low porosity) is extremely difficult. Most teams would still rely on forged pistons or precision castings, because 3D printing these alloys at piston scale is still cutting-edge and risky for reliability under 150–200 bar combustion pressures.

not sure why I got this wrong ...was sleeping I guess ...

According to the FIA technical regulations, pistons must be made only from specific iron-based alloys:

AMS 6487
15CDV6
42CrMo4
X38CrMoV5-3

[mzso]

The piston is the hottest part isn't it? Couldn't that be made to have a magnified expansion in a controlled direction?

Pistons have to made from 1 of 4 aluminum alloys Al 2618, 2219, 4032, or 2040.

Chatgpt says...
Technically: Yes, all four alloys can be 3D printed using advanced LPBF or DED systems.
Practically: Achieving F1-grade mechanical properties (high fatigue strength, tight tolerances, and low porosity) is extremely difficult. Most teams would still rely on forged pistons or precision castings, because 3D printing these alloys at piston scale is still cutting-edge and risky for reliability under 150–200 bar combustion pressures.

not sure why I got this wrong ...was sleeping I guess ...

According to the FIA technical regulations, pistons must be made only from specific iron-based alloys:

AMS 6487
15CDV6
42CrMo4
X38CrMoV5-3

Couldn't they just 3D print a(n expendable) mold for pistons and then cast metal in it? That wouldn't bring any of the disadvantages of 3d printing, and maybe all the advantages?

[Farnborough]

Casting any shape isn't a great challenge, fairly easy and can be any number of method to make fairly intricate design.

Currently though, they indicate a forged method, which gives different properties.

Forging "smashing" suitable metal into the required shape offers fundamentally advantageous finished structural benefits, over and above casting.

Very ! loosely described for appreciation/comparison and visualisation in simplistic terms:- casting could be akin to a sugar cube in grain structure, resistance to compression, and relative weakness to bending (if you had a long sugar block) but forging would be more like if you took a vertical section of an oak tree trunk, with branch/bow intersection, you'd see grain in metal terms (tree fibres) arrangement in flow patterns all along the joint in a way that best supported the stresses it can take in loading from key direction in the most advantageous way. That's obviously organic growth, forging seeks to mimic this in metal grain structure orientation to draw on ultimate capability from materials used.

Many metals can have their structural "grain" characteristics altered through heat treatment to reorientate key attributes after initial manufacturing, sometimes prior or last final machining.

[Tommy Cookers]

....forging would be more like if you took a vertical section of an oak tree trunk, with branch/bow intersection, you'd see grain in metal terms (tree fibres) arrangement in flow patterns all along the joint in a way that best supported the stresses it can take in loading from key direction in the most advantageous way. That's obviously organic growth, forging seeks to mimic this in metal grain structure orientation to draw on ultimate capability from materials used.

Many metals can have their structural "grain" characteristics altered through heat treatment to reorientate key attributes after initial manufacturing, sometimes prior or last final machining.

well ....
metal is isotropic (that's its USP) ie there cannot be in metal anything like the grain of natural materials

you are conflating cold working (which can improve surface & near-surface properties only) with .....
hot forging .... where after each forging pass the hot metal's structure recovers from that pass

forging is a benefit in fatigue life and/or shock resistance
but not really a benefit in strength and certainly not in stiffness
heat treatment will likely improve strength eg after hot forging
remember every piece of metal was a casting before it was a forging


if you can produce a grain through metal - patent your method and you will become a trillionaire

[diffuser]

....forging would be more like if you took a vertical section of an oak tree trunk, with branch/bow intersection, you'd see grain in metal terms (tree fibres) arrangement in flow patterns all along the joint in a way that best supported the stresses it can take in loading from key direction in the most advantageous way. That's obviously organic growth, forging seeks to mimic this in metal grain structure orientation to draw on ultimate capability from materials used.

Many metals can have their structural "grain" characteristics altered through heat treatment to reorientate key attributes after initial manufacturing, sometimes prior or last final machining.

well ....
metal is isotropic (that's its USP) ie there cannot be in metal anything like the grain of natural materials

you are conflating cold working (which can improve surface & near-surface properties only) with .....
hot forging .... where after each forging pass the hot metal's structure recovers from that pass

forging is a benefit in fatigue life and/or shock resistance
but not really a benefit in strength and certainly not in stiffness
heat treatment will likely improve strength eg after hot forging
remember every piece of metal was a casting before it was a forging


if you can produce a grain through metal - patent your method and you will become a trillionaire

The other thing is since the pistons are a iron alloy, you need really high temperatures to get significant expansion.

[Honda Porsche fan]

Should Honda start the designing and building of the 2027 engine and try to race/test it during the 2nd half of the 2026 season if it's allowed within the rules ?

[mzso]

Should Honda start the designing and building of the 2027 engine and try to race/test it during the 2nd half of the 2026 season if it's allowed within the rules ?

There's no this year or next year PU. ADOU is the way to develop. They can release the first new spec this season and the second before March next year. (If granted two upgrades)
Without ADOU they can change very little.

[mzso]

The other thing is since the pistons are a iron alloy, you need really high temperatures to get significant expansion.

But the point of 3D printing is to magnify the expansion in one direction, isn't it?

[Honda Porsche fan]

Should Honda start the designing and building of the 2027 engine and try to race/test it during the 2nd half of the 2026 season if it's allowed within the rules ?

There's no this year or next year PU. ADOU is the way to develop. They can release the first new spec this season and the second before March next year. (If granted two upgrades)
Without ADOU they can change very little.

So, they can develop and release two new engines before March 2027 within ADOU ? If I'm getting that correct then, Honda should start development on their new spec immediately.

[diffuser]

Should Honda start the designing and building of the 2027 engine and try to race/test it during the 2nd half of the 2026 season if it's allowed within the rules ?

There's no this year or next year PU. ADOU is the way to develop. They can release the first new spec this season and the second before March next year. (If granted two upgrades)
Without ADOU they can change very little.

So, they can develop and release two new engines before March 2027 within ADOU ? If I'm getting that correct then, Honda should start development on their new spec immediately.

2 updates.

[Honda Porsche fan]

Under the ADOU rules, if Honda is only allowed 2 updates till next March then, they need 2 BIG fundamental updates and not rush them, no quick little updates.

If that means the first update won't come till August or September then fine.


But, to be fair to the automakers, these ADOU rules are hamstringing the teams who are struggling preventing them from making the improvements to move up the rankings more quickly. The rules need to be reformed for struggling automakers.

Now, I'm conflicted, if the rules are changed for Honda to catchup then, Honda will just take advantage of those rules and not learn from their mistakes and why they're struggling early on and just continue this cycle of putting uncompetitive engines on the grid the first race of the season. Honda needs to reform their internal structure and culture internally at Honda Japan. It's a systemic problem at the Honda Motor Company Japan. They need to learn from Mercedes, Ferrari and Audi.