2026 Hybrid Powerunits

[wuzak]

So if there is a near ban of ICE in the birth place of F1, how can F1 continue with the ICE?

Because they dont have the rights to a fully electric formula, there isn't another mainstream alternative and F1 has never been about efficiency in its history apart from when they wanted to justify the move to hybrids. Its always been about top end performance.

I don't. BYD are currently building civilian EVs with 3 times the HP of a F1 PU. F1 Top end performance will eventually falter to EVs.

3000hp?

[diffuser]

Because they dont have the rights to a fully electric formula, there isn't another mainstream alternative and F1 has never been about efficiency in its history apart from when they wanted to justify the move to hybrids. Its always been about top end performance.

I don't. BYD are currently building civilian EVs with 3 times the HP of a F1 PU. F1 Top end performance will eventually falter to EVs.

3000hp?

Yep... https://electrek.co/2025/08/09/byd-r ... percar/

BTW The agreement with Formula E remaining the premier fully electric single-seater series is an informal agreement.

[eyelid]

EV's are the horses here, they were abandoned 100 years ago anyway.

And now they are coming back. BEV sales in EU are at 20%, up from 15% a year earlier. Tesla Model Y was the worlds most sold car in 2023. EVs are not going away anytime soon. Anyone believing that should invest money in ICE-tech.

And it's just a matter of order that ICE are coming back. They're still better tech than shitty EV's, that's what you know also. You're sure that shitty EV's which nobody want's arent going away? Why you want to torture people, why you want to see people suffering?

[gearboxtrouble]

So if there is a near ban of ICE in the birth place of F1, how can F1 continue with the ICE?

Because they dont have the rights to a fully electric formula, there isn't another mainstream alternative and F1 has never been about efficiency in its history apart from when they wanted to justify the move to hybrids. Its always been about top end performance.

I don't. BYD are currently building civilian EVs with 3 times the HP of a F1 PU. F1 Top end performance will eventually falter to EVs.

Batteries are physically incapable of reaching the energy density of hydrocarbon fuels. We are a long, long way (if ever) from having EVs that are able to achieve F1 levels of power to weight performance that lasts a full race distance. The BEV performance car market has collapsed because few people want one - high end road cars are as much about the experience than about the performance. If F1 was only about going as fast as possible you might as well remove the drivers - autonomous mobility is a (overhyped) buzzword these days and an algo can optimize laptime better than a human. For F1 to maintain its place as the pinnacle of human motorsports it will need to be centered around an ICE for both technical and experiential reasons.

[peewon]

So if there is a near ban of ICE in the birth place of F1, how can F1 continue with the ICE?

Because they dont have the rights to a fully electric formula

You missed that part. They would have to buy out Formula E.

[mzso]

The internal materials of the jet turbine has change alot over the last 60 years. They run so hot now. The technolgy to make the parts is highly complex. The way the air is used has changed..it used to all go through the turbine, now only 10% does. They use the front prop to push 90% of the air around the turbine. They're to 3 tines more efficient. I'm no expert. Just saw a video by veritasium.

A propfan takes this further, the contribution of the jet becomes tiny and the blades provide almost all the thrust.
An electric propfan would of course have no actual jet propulsion, only electric motors turning the fan, and the fuel cells supplying energy.
I specifically mentioned this because it's better efficiency wise and completely electrifiable.

So if there is a near ban of ICE in the birth place of F1, how can F1 continue with the ICE?

Because they dont have the rights to a fully electric formula, there isn't another mainstream alternative and F1 has never been about efficiency in its history apart from when they wanted to justify the move to hybrids. Its always been about top end performance.

That is at a rumor/legend status. We don't know the terms. Maybe it only applies full BEVs, which won't be F1 level anytime soon anyway. (unless we have many battery swap pitstops)

[mzso]

So if there is a near ban of ICE in the birth place of F1, how can F1 continue with the ICE?

Because they dont have the rights to a fully electric formula

You missed that part. They would have to buy out Formula E.

You missed this part:

BTW The agreement with Formula E remaining the premier fully electric single-seater series is an informal agreement.

Batteries are physically incapable of reaching the energy density of hydrocarbon fuels. We are a long, long way (if ever) from having EVs that are able to achieve F1 levels of power to weight performance that lasts a full race distance.

So? That's why we have fuel cell technology.
Also you could just have more pit stops ans swap batteries. I would guess 3-6.

The BEV performance car market has collapsed because few people want one - high end road cars are as much about the experience than about the performance.

Or maybe because they made a lot of overpriced dumb looking cars. They didn't to succeed, only to rip-off the few who bought them anyway.

autonomous mobility is a (overhyped) buzzword these days

It's not just a buzzword. Fully autonomous traffic would be far superior to all the fools cluttering up the streets with their big dumb mostly empty boxes, wasting energy and crashing into each other, and killing pedestrians all the time.

[gearboxtrouble]

Because they dont have the rights to a fully electric formula

You missed that part. They would have to buy out Formula E.

You missed this part:

BTW The agreement with Formula E remaining the premier fully electric single-seater series is an informal agreement.

Batteries are physically incapable of reaching the energy density of hydrocarbon fuels. We are a long, long way (if ever) from having EVs that are able to achieve F1 levels of power to weight performance that lasts a full race distance.

So? That's why we have fuel cell technology.
Also you could just have more pit stops ans swap batteries. I would guess 3-6.

The BEV performance car market has collapsed because few people want one - high end road cars are as much about the experience than about the performance.

Or maybe because they made a lot of overpriced dumb looking cars. They didn't to succeed, only to rip-off the few who bought them anyway.

Fuel cells are still heavy and they have a massive physical footprint. A F1 car with a battery able to support max output for even 1/6 th of the race distance would be heavy enough to require massive cars to be safe in a crash and the handling would be awful. The total weight including the driver can't be more than 800kg and even than imho is too much for F1. The failure of EV supercars has nothing to do with design - Porsche found no takers for its Mission X halo car and is now showing long time customers a new design based on the V8 963 platform. Mate Rimac saw the failure of the Nevera and pivoted Bugatti to a NA V16 hybrid for the Tourbillion instead of the full EV Chiron successor that was in development. When even a base Camry is fast enough for the street supercar buyers care more about the sound and feel of their cars. EVs just cannot provide that. The top end of the road car market will be combustion based for the foreseeable future because that's what the buyers want. If they have to pay a massive premium for sustainable fuels so be it but the market is there for it. This is all very interesting but I'm not sure how it is at all relevant to the 2026 Power Units.

[wuzak]

Some calculations I made comparing F1 and an EV F1.

Under the 2026 rules, an F1 car will use approximately 3,000MJ* of fuel energy in the race. Which is about 833kWh.

* There is no limit to how much can be used in a race, so it will probably be more.

However, the 2026 combustion engines are about 50% efficient, so the equivalent energy required for an all-electric F1 would be aroun 416kWh, or slightly higher, since the charge/discharge and motor effieicncies are high, but not 100%.

The current (Gen 3) Formula E (all electric) has a 47kWh battery and a 30s recharging period (pit boost) which adds 3.85kWh.

The Gen 4 car, which has just started testing and will be used from the 2026/27 season, has more power and a bigger battery - 55kWh. Weight has gone up by about 150kg, making them weigh about 250kg more than a 2026 F1 car.

The largest Tesla Model S battery is 100kWh. So you would need 4 of them to do a race, plus some recharging.

The GMC Hummer EV has a 212kWh battery. That is a large vehicle that weighs in at 4,300kg. The battery weighs in at 1,326kg, nearly double that of the minimum weight of a 2026 F1 car (768kg).

So, no, an all-electric car racing at F1 speeds is currently not feasible.

[gearboxtrouble]

Rods for sure are too lightweight. Teams would want to optimize rod construction to emphasize thermal properties which probably means as little material as possible. Would also say the fuel system itself including the tank would need modifications. They would need more air to handle the greater fuel which would mean either more boost from the turbo or actual intake system changes. Finally they'd need to tune the whole drivetrain to the new ICE output which probably needs a decently lengthy dyno program.

I was thinking in terms of the ICE/PU, rather than the whole car.

I would think rods are easily changed.
Injectors and high pressure fuel pumps will probably have to be increased in size.

They have plenty of air. Increased fuel flow would mean a less lean mixture.

I suggest that these changes would be made for 2027 or 2028, which would give them time to upgrade their systems.

On the chassis side, the fuel tank would need to be large, as would the fuel system. Though they had larger tanks and fuel systems just last year, so it shouldn't be a massive problem to implement for the next season.

Wouldn't they still want to keep a higher lambda? Sure they could just run richer but its still a fuel flow constrained formula so thermal efficiency matters. Maybe they run slightly richer than now but a 20% increase in fuel flow would still need more air to stay at the efficient combustion frontier. It might be 10% or it might be 15% but ultimately that's going to have to come from somewhere. And if the answer is just run it richer then the cooling system would need to be optimized for the lower temperatures (could prob save some weight and drag here).

[wuzak]

Rods for sure are too lightweight. Teams would want to optimize rod construction to emphasize thermal properties which probably means as little material as possible. Would also say the fuel system itself including the tank would need modifications. They would need more air to handle the greater fuel which would mean either more boost from the turbo or actual intake system changes. Finally they'd need to tune the whole drivetrain to the new ICE output which probably needs a decently lengthy dyno program.

I was thinking in terms of the ICE/PU, rather than the whole car.

I would think rods are easily changed.
Injectors and high pressure fuel pumps will probably have to be increased in size.

They have plenty of air. Increased fuel flow would mean a less lean mixture.

I suggest that these changes would be made for 2027 or 2028, which would give them time to upgrade their systems.

On the chassis side, the fuel tank would need to be large, as would the fuel system. Though they had larger tanks and fuel systems just last year, so it shouldn't be a massive problem to implement for the next season.

Wouldn't they still want to keep a higher lambda? Sure they could just run richer but its still a fuel flow constrained formula so thermal efficiency matters. Maybe they run slightly richer than now but a 20% increase in fuel flow would still need more air to stay at the efficient combustion frontier. It might be 10% or it might be 15% but ultimately that's going to have to come from somewhere. And if the answer is just run it richer then the cooling system would need to be optimized for the lower temperatures (could prob save some weight and drag here).

What lambda are they running now?

Engineering Explained calculated a potential lambda of 2.8 - surely that's way too high?

Could a different solution be to boost fuel flow below 10,500rpm, so that it isn't linear with rpm and enabling more to be recovered from part throttle?

[BorisTheBlade]

Some calculations I made comparing F1 and an EV F1.

Under the 2026 rules, an F1 car will use approximately 3,000MJ* of fuel energy in the race. Which is about 833kWh.

* There is no limit to how much can be used in a race, so it will probably be more.

However, the 2026 combustion engines are about 50% efficient, so the equivalent energy required for an all-electric F1 would be aroun 416kWh, or slightly higher, since the charge/discharge and motor effieicncies are high, but not 100%.

The current (Gen 3) Formula E (all electric) has a 47kWh battery and a 30s recharging period (pit boost) which adds 3.85kWh.

The Gen 4 car, which has just started testing and will be used from the 2026/27 season, has more power and a bigger battery - 55kWh. Weight has gone up by about 150kg, making them weigh about 250kg more than a 2026 F1 car.

The largest Tesla Model S battery is 100kWh. So you would need 4 of them to do a race, plus some recharging.

The GMC Hummer EV has a 212kWh battery. That is a large vehicle that weighs in at 4,300kg. The battery weighs in at 1,326kg, nearly double that of the minimum weight of a 2026 F1 car (768kg).

So, no, an all-electric car racing at F1 speeds is currently not feasible.

While this will not change the outcome of your reasoning, you should also consider energy recovery: A fully electric F1 with let's say a 2 KW AWD should be able to recover somewhere between 30-60% of the energy used to accelerate before, under slowing. This very much depends on the the Aero regulations of such a spec, as this is by far the largest part of the non-recoverable energy.
So, the battery could be much smaller in capacity and thus lighter. Making it swappable during races and being allowed to use smaller ones during Qualifying would improve overall performance significantly. But generally yes, I do not see a battery electric car perform better on a race track than an ICE based one under otherwise similar regulations.
I could imagine a car with a rather small battery just for recovery and a fuel cells coming close - but I am not up to date regarding achievable energy density numbers.

[Tommy Cookers]

... Engineering Explained calculated a potential lambda of 2.8 - surely that's way too high?

....Could a different solution be to boost fuel flow below 10,500rpm ....

lambda 2.8 would be possible - with hydrogen fuel

the cars have spent 12 years with fueling rigged to make the ICE a constant torque device (to benefit the electric side)
this is why they charge at such high rpm regardless of the ICE's potential efficiency suite
rpm and voltage are of course equivalent and full voltage/not-full current is better than full current/not-full voltage
350 kW is only available at relatively high rpm as MGU-K torque is capped at 300 Nm regardless of rpm

[mzso]

Fuel cells are still heavy and they have a massive physical footprint. A F1 car with a battery able to support max output for even 1/6 th of the race distance would be heavy enough to require massive cars to be safe in a crash and the handling would be awful. The total weight including the driver can't be more than 800kg and even than imho is too much for F1.

Not necessarily. There were designs that had rather good power density. If they got some proper development attention they would be even better. It a tech that can be improved iteratively. Always making the active materials thinner, the structural parts lighter, etc.
I think 1/6 race distance (probably even better) is pretty much doable below 800kg at the current state of technology. Using the best cells, and recovering as much as possible

he failure of EV supercars has nothing to do with design

I disagree. Many electric variants had dumb quirks compared to ICE variants. Upon the overpricing.

[peewon]

Because they dont have the rights to a fully electric formula

You missed that part. They would have to buy out Formula E.

You missed this part:

BTW The agreement with Formula E remaining the premier fully electric single-seater series is an informal agreement.

I mean I dont know what he means by that because its reported as a fully formal deal between Formula E and FIA, extending to 2048.

https://www.the-race.com/formula-e/form ... tric-deal/

Now Liberty is a majority shareholder in Formula E as well so they could swing it but they'll have to execute a buy out of all stakeholders who are only part of Formula E.