2026 Hybrid Powerunits

[Badger]

Those viewership figures are about as real as Santa Claus. When you account for inflation FE has barely grown since 2019. The decision to begin to encroach on FE territory by F1 was a huge mistake, it's an unprofitable series with a shrinking revenue. Meanwhile F1 has been booming with gas-guzzlers for the past 5 years.
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https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/UCiY2/full.png

I think we agree on the general point that the popularity of FE is nowhere enough for Liberty to even consider switching F1 to electric? Regardless of the metric you want to use. One nitpick is that FE graph goes till 2024 whereas the F1 graph is till 2025. FE was also back above $200m for 2025.

I think FE will reach its peak popularity when the cars are not battery limited. It will be interesting to see what that looks like. However, I think ICE will always remain the premium series for the foreseeable future.

The only VALID reason not switch to full electric is if ICE is faster. Right now it is, that will change in the near future.

The past 3 weekends have shown us differently. It’s not just about the lap time but also how the car achieves that lap time. Too much harvesting, especially in the corners, is poison for F1.

And you’re delusional if you think we are remotely close to a battery that could deliver F1 grade energy density and discharge rates. There’s a reason FE still has to compete on Mickey Mouse tracks with constant energy management, and they still can’t get over 100 km range. The new gen 4 car has upped the power by 50%, it’s also 150 kg heavier than the last generation because it needs a bigger battery, and 250 kg heavier than F1. There’s a lot of hype and misinformation in the EV space, a lot of people puffing their chest and making claims that they can’t live up to. In fact this mentality is how F1 ended up in this situation in the first place, through hubris and politics, they overpromised and underdelivered.

[mzso]

Those viewership figures are about as real as Santa Claus. When you account for inflation FE has barely grown since 2019. The decision to begin to encroach on FE territory by F1 was a huge mistake, it's an unprofitable series with a shrinking revenue. Meanwhile F1 has been booming with gas-guzzlers for the past 5 years.
https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/dQwA5/full.png
https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/UCiY2/full.png

Agreed, I think it's a big mistake to equate F1's popularity to the ICE. For me it's always been because it was the pinnacle of motorsports. That means, attracting the best drivers and the best minds. They do that by paying the most money.

Not sure we agree at all. F1 being the pinnacle of motorsport has a lot to do with the ICE and the power density it brings, hence why FE is such a second rate series in comparison.

F1 trying to become 50% Formula E was a big mistake, hence all the complaints we see in 2026.

F1's popularity has to do with history, prestige and big money. It's put on a pedestal. whether it has NA v10s or turbo hybrids had no effect on its popularity. Neither would full electrification.

[mzso]

Discharge rate for fuel cells is also an issue; I'm guessing the fuel cell would be generating at a flat rate all the time, charging a battery for actual use. Another issue is the fuel for fuel cells; assuming a hydrogen cell fuel storage becomes a limiting issue. I'm not going to run the numbers (again) but liquid hydrogen is very bulky for energy density and hydrogen gas is right out. The most effective fuel cells run both hydrogen and liquid oxygen, as air is only 20% O2.

A fuel cell F1 equivalent is never going to happen, the numbers just don't work, and the same for hydrogen powered commercial aircraft.

Don't assume hydrogen, it's useless for both racing and road. (for different reasons)
Only direct carbon fuel cells would work. With something like butane, or butanol. Or with worse energy density mehanol/ethanol.

And you’re delusional if you think we are remotely close to a battery that could deliver F1 grade energy density and discharge rates.

I already refuted a flawed statement like this, like one 1-2 pages ago.

[Ferry]

And it's just a matter of order that ICE are coming back. They're still better tech than shitty EV's, that's what you know also. You're sure that shitty EV's which nobody want's arent going away? Why you want to torture people, why you want to see people suffering?

Did I hit a nerve there? The official statistics are out there for everyone to view. EV sales numbers are still going up. With variations in different markets.
No need to tell me what I'm supposed to know. I know very well how EVs works. It's the only car people buy here now, with the exception of a very few performance cars.

[bananapeel23]

F1 trying to become 50% Formula E was a big mistake, hence all the complaints we see in 2026.

There is still no severe issue in principle with the 50/50 split power units. Formula E supposedly getting 50% of its total power from the regenrative braking proves as much. Sure, FE uses a ton of lift and coast, but F1 could compensate for that with an MGU-K.

750kW brake harvesting with front axle regen and an MGU-H would make the 50/50 split conpletely fine when combined with active aero. There would be boatloads of battery power available.

Only politics is the issue. Well, that and weight. It would be heavy as hell, but could proooobably stay below 2025 weight, at least if they made compromises like 13 inch rims.

[diffuser]

I think we agree on the general point that the popularity of FE is nowhere enough for Liberty to even consider switching F1 to electric? Regardless of the metric you want to use. One nitpick is that FE graph goes till 2024 whereas the F1 graph is till 2025. FE was also back above $200m for 2025.

I think FE will reach its peak popularity when the cars are not battery limited. It will be interesting to see what that looks like. However, I think ICE will always remain the premium series for the foreseeable future.

The only VALID reason not switch to full electric is if ICE is faster. Right now it is, that will change in the near future.

The past 3 weekends have shown us differently. It’s not just about the lap time but also how the car achieves that lap time. Too much harvesting, especially in the corners, is poison for F1.

And you’re delusional if you think we are remotely close to a battery that could deliver F1 grade energy density and discharge rates. There’s a reason FE still has to compete on Mickey Mouse tracks with constant energy management, and they still can’t get over 100 km range. The new gen 4 car has upped the power by 50%, it’s also 150 kg heavier than the last generation because it needs a bigger battery, and 250 kg heavier than F1. There’s a lot of hype and misinformation in the EV space, a lot of people puffing their chest and making claims that they can’t live up to. In fact this mentality is how F1 ended up in this situation in the first place, through hubris and politics, they overpromised and underdelivered.

The battery density in the Gen4 is 250ish wh/kg. Achieving a 1,000 Wh/kg battery density is expected by the late 2020s to early 2030s, based on current research and industry roadmaps.

WeLion, a Chinese battery developer, has already achieved 824 Wh/kg in lab tests and aims to surpass 1,000 Wh/kg in the long term.
They and other companies like Dongfeng are targeting mass production of advanced solid-state batteries by 2027–2028, though initial deployments will likely be in niche applications like robotics or premium EVs. When they hit the Gen 5 who knows but that's 4 times the energy for the same weight of battery that they currently have.

[diffuser]

The past 3 weekends have shown us differently. It’s not just about the lap time but also how the car achieves that lap time. Too much harvesting, especially in the corners, is poison for F1.

And you’re delusional if you think we are remotely close to a battery that could deliver F1 grade energy density and discharge rates. There’s a reason FE still has to compete on Mickey Mouse tracks with constant energy management, and they still can’t get over 100 km range. The new gen 4 car has upped the power by 50%, it’s also 150 kg heavier than the last generation because it needs a bigger battery, and 250 kg heavier than F1. There’s a lot of hype and misinformation in the EV space, a lot of people puffing their chest and making claims that they can’t live up to. In fact this mentality is how F1 ended up in this situation in the first place, through hubris and politics, they overpromised and underdelivered.

The battery density in the Gen4 is 250ish wh/kg. Achieving a 1,000 Wh/kg battery density is expected by the late 2020s to early 2030s, based on current research and industry roadmaps.

WeLion, a Chinese battery developer, has already achieved 824 Wh/kg in lab tests and aims to surpass 1,000 Wh/kg in the long term.
They and other companies like Dongfeng are targeting mass production of advanced solid-state batteries by 2027–2028, though initial deployments will likely be in niche applications like robotics or premium EVs. When they hit the Gen 5 who knows but that's 4 times the energy for the same weight of battery that they currently have.

Mass production of niche products? What?

2027 - 2028 1000wh/kg will be used in niche products, not sure what's so complicated. By 2030 they'll be fairly common.

[Badger]

Agreed, I think it's a big mistake to equate F1's popularity to the ICE. For me it's always been because it was the pinnacle of motorsports. That means, attracting the best drivers and the best minds. They do that by paying the most money.

Not sure we agree at all. F1 being the pinnacle of motorsport has a lot to do with the ICE and the power density it brings, hence why FE is such a second rate series in comparison.

F1 trying to become 50% Formula E was a big mistake, hence all the complaints we see in 2026.

F1's popularity has to do with history, prestige and big money. It's put on a pedestal. whether it has NA v10s or turbo hybrids had no effect on its popularity. Neither would full electrification.

It was put on a pedestal for a reason. The combination of braking, cornering, and straight line performance is simply unmatched in other series. You need a certain energy density from your drivetrain to achieve that. Full electrification at this stage would be the end of F1 as a premier motorsport.

[Badger]

The only VALID reason not switch to full electric is if ICE is faster. Right now it is, that will change in the near future.

The past 3 weekends have shown us differently. It’s not just about the lap time but also how the car achieves that lap time. Too much harvesting, especially in the corners, is poison for F1.

And you’re delusional if you think we are remotely close to a battery that could deliver F1 grade energy density and discharge rates. There’s a reason FE still has to compete on Mickey Mouse tracks with constant energy management, and they still can’t get over 100 km range. The new gen 4 car has upped the power by 50%, it’s also 150 kg heavier than the last generation because it needs a bigger battery, and 250 kg heavier than F1. There’s a lot of hype and misinformation in the EV space, a lot of people puffing their chest and making claims that they can’t live up to. In fact this mentality is how F1 ended up in this situation in the first place, through hubris and politics, they overpromised and underdelivered.

The battery density in the Gen4 is 250ish wh/kg. Achieving a 1,000 Wh/kg battery density is expected by the late 2020s to early 2030s, based on current research and industry roadmaps.

WeLion, a Chinese battery developer, has already achieved 824 Wh/kg in lab tests and aims to surpass 1,000 Wh/kg in the long term.
They and other companies like Dongfeng are targeting mass production of advanced solid-state batteries by 2027–2028, though initial deployments will likely be in niche applications like robotics or premium EVs. When they hit the Gen 5 who knows but that's 4 times the energy for the same weight of battery that they currently have.

SSBs have been "expected" for ages, issues constantly come up. We just had that Donut Labs hoax which is typical of the battery industry.

And even if you can create a battery with nominally high energy density it will create other issues that makes it impractical for F1. Battery chemistry is not magic, it's a compromise between forces that are working against each other. So when you need ultra-high density, high discharge rate, limited cooling, rapid cycling, and a decent lifespan, you are asking for a unicorn product with zero compromises that may never exist, nevermind a few years from now.

[diffuser]

The past 3 weekends have shown us differently. It’s not just about the lap time but also how the car achieves that lap time. Too much harvesting, especially in the corners, is poison for F1.

And you’re delusional if you think we are remotely close to a battery that could deliver F1 grade energy density and discharge rates. There’s a reason FE still has to compete on Mickey Mouse tracks with constant energy management, and they still can’t get over 100 km range. The new gen 4 car has upped the power by 50%, it’s also 150 kg heavier than the last generation because it needs a bigger battery, and 250 kg heavier than F1. There’s a lot of hype and misinformation in the EV space, a lot of people puffing their chest and making claims that they can’t live up to. In fact this mentality is how F1 ended up in this situation in the first place, through hubris and politics, they overpromised and underdelivered.

The battery density in the Gen4 is 250ish wh/kg. Achieving a 1,000 Wh/kg battery density is expected by the late 2020s to early 2030s, based on current research and industry roadmaps.

WeLion, a Chinese battery developer, has already achieved 824 Wh/kg in lab tests and aims to surpass 1,000 Wh/kg in the long term.
They and other companies like Dongfeng are targeting mass production of advanced solid-state batteries by 2027–2028, though initial deployments will likely be in niche applications like robotics or premium EVs. When they hit the Gen 5 who knows but that's 4 times the energy for the same weight of battery that they currently have.

SSBs have been "expected" for ages, issues constantly come up. We just had that Donut Labs hoax which is typical of the battery industry.

And even if you can create a battery with nominally high energy density it will create other issues that makes it impractical for F1. Battery chemistry is not magic, it's a compromise between forces that are working against each other. So when you need ultra-high density, high discharge rate, limited cooling, rapid cycling, and a decent lifespan, you are asking for a unicorn product with zero compromises that may never exist, nevermind a few years from now.

“You know, it doesn’t matter what you and I say today—we’ll know in two or three years. I understand that some breakthrough ideas fall apart when people try to scale them up for production, but a large part of the world is fed up with having to pay for oil and gas. There are alternatives, and there is a huge amount of investment, with even bigger rewards for those who succeed.”

[eyelid]

The battery density in the Gen4 is 250ish wh/kg. Achieving a 1,000 Wh/kg battery density is expected by the late 2020s to early 2030s, based on current research and industry roadmaps.

WeLion, a Chinese battery developer, has already achieved 824 Wh/kg in lab tests and aims to surpass 1,000 Wh/kg in the long term.
They and other companies like Dongfeng are targeting mass production of advanced solid-state batteries by 2027–2028, though initial deployments will likely be in niche applications like robotics or premium EVs. When they hit the Gen 5 who knows but that's 4 times the energy for the same weight of battery that they currently have.

SSBs have been "expected" for ages, issues constantly come up. We just had that Donut Labs hoax which is typical of the battery industry.

And even if you can create a battery with nominally high energy density it will create other issues that makes it impractical for F1. Battery chemistry is not magic, it's a compromise between forces that are working against each other. So when you need ultra-high density, high discharge rate, limited cooling, rapid cycling, and a decent lifespan, you are asking for a unicorn product with zero compromises that may never exist, nevermind a few years from now.

“You know, it doesn’t matter what you and I say today—we’ll know in two or three years. I understand that some breakthrough ideas fall apart when people try to scale them up for production, but a large part of the world is fed up with having to pay for oil and gas. There are alternatives, and there is a huge amount of investment, with even bigger rewards for those who succeed.”

Oil and gas isn't the problem. And if it could be: EV is the worst technology to solve and least used.

[mzso]

Only politics is the issue. Well, that and weight. It would be heavy as hell, but could proooobably stay below 2025 weight, at least if they made compromises like 13 inch rims.

I don't think weight would be much of an issue. If Yasa sticking to conventional materials could reach 1000hp for 13kg, without F1 development budgets.

It was put on a pedestal for a reason. The combination of braking, cornering, and straight line performance is simply unmatched in other series. You need a certain energy density from your drivetrain to achieve that. Full electrification at this stage would be the end of F1 as a premier motorsport.

The reason is age, history and familiarity. "Prestige" if you will.
Also you're just reiterating what I already pointed out is wrong with your performance misbelief. Are you write-only?
You could reach similar performance Even with BEVs and battery swapping.

“You know, it doesn’t matter what you and I say today—we’ll know in two or three years. I understand that some breakthrough ideas fall apart when people try to scale them up for production, but a large part of the world is fed up with having to pay for oil and gas. There are alternatives, and there is a huge amount of investment, with even bigger rewards for those who succeed.”

Reason cannot compete with his blind bias...

[mzso]

WeLion, a Chinese battery developer, has already achieved 824 Wh/kg in lab tests and aims to surpass 1,000 Wh/kg in the long term.
They and other companies like Dongfeng are targeting mass production of advanced solid-state batteries by 2027–2028, though initial deployments will likely be in niche applications like robotics or premium EVs. When they hit the Gen 5 who knows but that's 4 times the energy for the same weight of battery that they currently have.

Sounds good. Too bad these have trouble reaching the market. On the positive side, if anyone the Chinese know how to build up manufacturing facilites for economic production.

[Cold Fussion]

Not necessarily. There were designs that had rather good power density. If they got some proper development attention they would be even better. It a tech that can be improved iteratively. Always making the active materials thinner, the structural parts lighter, etc.
I think 1/6 race distance (probably even better) is pretty much doable below 800kg at the current state of technology. Using the best cells, and recovering as much as possible

The volumetric density of hydrogen is absolutely awful and makes it a complete non starter for F1. Even if you were to use liquid hydrogen, you would still need a fuel tank volume ~3x that of petrol, and then you're dealing with cryogenic fuel which brings with it another host of problems. Maybe if you used pure liquid deuterium you would have a starting point. Hydrogen fuel cells might one day might find a niche in long distance trucks or military vehicles but I doubt we'll see them outside of that.

[Badger]

The battery density in the Gen4 is 250ish wh/kg. Achieving a 1,000 Wh/kg battery density is expected by the late 2020s to early 2030s, based on current research and industry roadmaps.

WeLion, a Chinese battery developer, has already achieved 824 Wh/kg in lab tests and aims to surpass 1,000 Wh/kg in the long term.
They and other companies like Dongfeng are targeting mass production of advanced solid-state batteries by 2027–2028, though initial deployments will likely be in niche applications like robotics or premium EVs. When they hit the Gen 5 who knows but that's 4 times the energy for the same weight of battery that they currently have.

SSBs have been "expected" for ages, issues constantly come up. We just had that Donut Labs hoax which is typical of the battery industry.

And even if you can create a battery with nominally high energy density it will create other issues that makes it impractical for F1. Battery chemistry is not magic, it's a compromise between forces that are working against each other. So when you need ultra-high density, high discharge rate, limited cooling, rapid cycling, and a decent lifespan, you are asking for a unicorn product with zero compromises that may never exist, nevermind a few years from now.

“You know, it doesn’t matter what you and I say today—we’ll know in two or three years. I understand that some breakthrough ideas fall apart when people try to scale them up for production, but a large part of the world is fed up with having to pay for oil and gas. There are alternatives, and there is a huge amount of investment, with even bigger rewards for those who succeed.”

Are you quoting yourself now?

These batteries you speak of are not a reality yet, it's vaporware. In two or three years they will need another two or three years to make it to market. I remember when Chat-GPT launched and the story was "two or three years until artificial general intelligence". People in these hyped up industries always oversell the speed of development and adoption even if the long term impact of the tech may be huge. It's part of the game, it's part of how you raise money, all the investors need that FOMO to part ways with their dollars.

F1 shouldn't be the guinea pig for this. Let Formula E do the Mickey Mouse racing where it's all energy management until the final laps and you can't race on the big boy circuits. If and only if the technology becomes genuinely viable for F1's demands should they consider adoption, we're nowhere close in reality.