Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[velizare]

So I guess that means there's still too much vibration, one way or the other.
I wonder how much power does this leave untapped.

I wonder how AM does things differently from Red Bull?

Whatever it is, the fact this 10% ADUO category was introduced, we can assume they are at least 50-60hp down. And as much as Wazari says it "hasn't been pushed to 100% yet", Orihara seems to think they are basically at it's ceiling for outright power, so I can't see them suddenly bridging that gap at 100% if that is true. Mix that with Honda being concerned that most of their techniques used in the previous ICE were made redundant by the new regs and being behind on development, this all makes sense.

It'll be down to whether or not they can do what they did in 2021 and find a way to leap frog everyone. In the meantime, gains will be from learning energy management tricks and refining the entire PU's drivability.

Question is, this 50-60hp gap, is including the fact they are not running the PU at 100%, or, in the case they can running it 100% capabilities...still there is this huge horse power gap. And in this case, what is the real current gap in these races.

i think fia determines performance based on figures coming from how engines perform on the track, and not on some educated guessing how they could perform if circumstances were optimal.

[mzso]

i think fia determines performance based on figures coming from how engines perform on the track, and not on some educated guessing how they could perform if circumstances were optimal.

That would be meaningless, they run them at whichever power they want. Especially if someone has vibration issues and can't even run on full power.
Testbench power would be the most relevant at maximum fuel flow.

[diffuser]

i think fia determines performance based on figures coming from how engines perform on the track, and not on some educated guessing how they could perform if circumstances were optimal.

That would be meaningless, they run them at whichever power they want. Especially if someone has vibration issues and can't even run on full power.
Testbench power would be the most relevant at maximum fuel flow.

Pretty sure someone at Honda could make the ICE run well below it's capabilities on a test bench without the FIA catching on for 10 minutes. Even with max fuel flow.

Hard to hide it, race in race out, different teams, qualifying, sprint, etc. Especially when you're fighting for points. AMR F1/Honda are kind of in an original position of not having a PU in a position to fight for points.

[peewon]

i think fia determines performance based on figures coming from how engines perform on the track, and not on some educated guessing how they could perform if circumstances were optimal.

Its all a bit murky as to how the official ADUO calculations will be done. But I know one thing for certain. Toto Wolff does not like to cede any competitive advantage. He would rather ruin the entire product of the sport than give up his competitive advantage. And he has come out and said publicly that hes is okay with Honda receiving not only the original stipulated ADUO benefits but also additional ones. That more or less tells me where they stand even if we dont know the precise figure of deficit. They will not compete this year or the next.

[diffuser]

i think fia determines performance based on figures coming from how engines perform on the track, and not on some educated guessing how they could perform if circumstances were optimal.

Its all a bit murky as to how the official ADUO calculations will be done. But I know one thing for certain. Toto Wolff does not like to cede any competitive advantage. He would rather ruin the entire product of the sport than give up his competitive advantage. And he has come out and said publicly that hes is okay with Honda receiving not only the original stipulated ADUO benefits but also additional ones. That more or less tells me where they stand even if we dont know the precise figure of deficit. They will not compete this year or the next.

Yeah, it's becoming evident that they've been using the ICE near it's max power and that max is far behind everyone else.

[velizare]

i think fia determines performance based on figures coming from how engines perform on the track, and not on some educated guessing how they could perform if circumstances were optimal.

Its all a bit murky as to how the official ADUO calculations will be done. But I know one thing for certain. Toto Wolff does not like to cede any competitive advantage. He would rather ruin the entire product of the sport than give up his competitive advantage. And he has come out and said publicly that hes is okay with Honda receiving not only the original stipulated ADUO benefits but also additional ones. That more or less tells me where they stand even if we dont know the precise figure of deficit. They will not compete this year or the next.

fortunately, not only merc has merc pus. and i really doubt brown would be sandbagging for toto's sake. or vowles, with the overweight they have. and thats the trick, since fia only needs a sole racer pushing hard with mercedes pu.

[GhostF1]

i think fia determines performance based on figures coming from how engines perform on the track, and not on some educated guessing how they could perform if circumstances were optimal.

Its all a bit murky as to how the official ADUO calculations will be done. But I know one thing for certain. Toto Wolff does not like to cede any competitive advantage. He would rather ruin the entire product of the sport than give up his competitive advantage. And he has come out and said publicly that hes is okay with Honda receiving not only the original stipulated ADUO benefits but also additional ones. That more or less tells me where they stand even if we dont know the precise figure of deficit. They will not compete this year or the next.

fortunately, not only merc has merc pus. and i really doubt brown would be sandbagging for toto's sake. or vowles, with the overweight they have. and thats the trick, since fia only needs a sole racer pushing hard with mercedes pu.

This is true to a point, but they have Merc PU engineers at each team providing the parameters the PU can be used within. So it's fairly easy for Merc to just provide a certain operating range implied that is it's maximum without actually being its maximum. Especially at the start of new PU regs, works teams should have advantages, yes there is stipulation each manufacturer must provide the same information to all teams using their engine in respect to new mappings or utilisation as development and learnings progress. But there's obviously a "loophole" here where if Merc believe they don't have to use their engine at its max from the get go and believe 85% is enough to cover them without showing their entire hand, this has the knock on effect of not being obligated to provide that info to other teams if they themselves aren't using it at max. So it's not actually a guarantee having customer teams would expose PU strengths. They can still be hidden.

I am not sure what the timeframe is in needing to share new information, but one would assume Merc might find every opportunity possible to delay sharing information to McLaren, for example.

[diffuser]

Its all a bit murky as to how the official ADUO calculations will be done. But I know one thing for certain. Toto Wolff does not like to cede any competitive advantage. He would rather ruin the entire product of the sport than give up his competitive advantage. And he has come out and said publicly that hes is okay with Honda receiving not only the original stipulated ADUO benefits but also additional ones. That more or less tells me where they stand even if we dont know the precise figure of deficit. They will not compete this year or the next.

fortunately, not only merc has merc pus. and i really doubt brown would be sandbagging for toto's sake. or vowles, with the overweight they have. and thats the trick, since fia only needs a sole racer pushing hard with mercedes pu.

This is true to a point, but they have Merc PU engineers at each team providing the parameters the PU can be used within. So it's fairly easy for Merc to just provide a certain operating range implied that is it's maximum without actually being its maximum. Especially at the start of new PU regs, works teams should have advantages, yes there is stipulation each manufacturer must provide the same information to all teams using their engine in respect to new mappings or utilisation as development and learnings progress. But there's obviously a "loophole" here where if Merc believe they don't have to use their engine at its max from the get go and believe 85% is enough to cover them without showing their entire hand, this has the knock on effect of not being obligated to provide that info to other teams if they themselves aren't using it at max. So it's not actually a guarantee having customer teams would expose PU strengths. They can still be hidden.

I am not sure what the timeframe is in needing to share new information, but one would assume Merc might find every opportunity possible to delay sharing information to McLaren, for example.

The thing is those maps are set going into qualifying. What if you set them at 85% and you end up 10th and then can't even turn up the wick for the race cause you must use the same set of maps?

[ispano6]

i think fia determines performance based on figures coming from how engines perform on the track, and not on some educated guessing how they could perform if circumstances were optimal.

Its all a bit murky as to how the official ADUO calculations will be done. But I know one thing for certain. Toto Wolff does not like to cede any competitive advantage. He would rather ruin the entire product of the sport than give up his competitive advantage. And he has come out and said publicly that hes is okay with Honda receiving not only the original stipulated ADUO benefits but also additional ones. That more or less tells me where they stand even if we dont know the precise figure of deficit. They will not compete this year or the next.

Nice of Toto (AML stockholder) to lend a helping hand to his business partner Stroll!

[peewon]

i think fia determines performance based on figures coming from how engines perform on the track, and not on some educated guessing how they could perform if circumstances were optimal.

Its all a bit murky as to how the official ADUO calculations will be done. But I know one thing for certain. Toto Wolff does not like to cede any competitive advantage. He would rather ruin the entire product of the sport than give up his competitive advantage. And he has come out and said publicly that hes is okay with Honda receiving not only the original stipulated ADUO benefits but also additional ones. That more or less tells me where they stand even if we dont know the precise figure of deficit. They will not compete this year or the next.

Nice of Toto (AML stockholder) to lend a helping hand to his business partner Stroll!

Maybe on a personal level with Stroll. But in my personal opinion, hes not that bothered about the 1% he owns in Aston Martin Lagonda considering the team he owns 30% of, the Mercedes team, is valued at ~ $6B.

[diffuser]

i think fia determines performance based on figures coming from how engines perform on the track, and not on some educated guessing how they could perform if circumstances were optimal.

Its all a bit murky as to how the official ADUO calculations will be done. But I know one thing for certain. Toto Wolff does not like to cede any competitive advantage. He would rather ruin the entire product of the sport than give up his competitive advantage. And he has come out and said publicly that hes is okay with Honda receiving not only the original stipulated ADUO benefits but also additional ones. That more or less tells me where they stand even if we dont know the precise figure of deficit. They will not compete this year or the next.

Nice of Toto (AML stockholder) to lend a helping hand to his business partner Stroll!

That's just a dumb statement.
#1 Not like it's only up to Toto to decide.
#2 I'm sure Toto returns on AML pale in comparison to the Bonuses he receives for Merc F1 doing really well or winning.
#3 AML are only the name right holder for the AMR F1 team. It's not like Helping Honda directly helps sell AML cars, beyond what the advertising does. Toto investing in AML is just because he believes in Stroll's ability to turn that business around. Doesn't AML use Merc PUs?

[velizare]

Its all a bit murky as to how the official ADUO calculations will be done. But I know one thing for certain. Toto Wolff does not like to cede any competitive advantage. He would rather ruin the entire product of the sport than give up his competitive advantage. And he has come out and said publicly that hes is okay with Honda receiving not only the original stipulated ADUO benefits but also additional ones. That more or less tells me where they stand even if we dont know the precise figure of deficit. They will not compete this year or the next.

fortunately, not only merc has merc pus. and i really doubt brown would be sandbagging for toto's sake. or vowles, with the overweight they have. and thats the trick, since fia only needs a sole racer pushing hard with mercedes pu.

This is true to a point, but they have Merc PU engineers at each team providing the parameters the PU can be used within. So it's fairly easy for Merc to just provide a certain operating range implied that is it's maximum without actually being its maximum. Especially at the start of new PU regs, works teams should have advantages, yes there is stipulation each manufacturer must provide the same information to all teams using their engine in respect to new mappings or utilisation as development and learnings progress. But there's obviously a "loophole" here where if Merc believe they don't have to use their engine at its max from the get go and believe 85% is enough to cover them without showing their entire hand, this has the knock on effect of not being obligated to provide that info to other teams if they themselves aren't using it at max. So it's not actually a guarantee having customer teams would expose PU strengths. They can still be hidden.

I am not sure what the timeframe is in needing to share new information, but one would assume Merc might find every opportunity possible to delay sharing information to McLaren, for example.

nah, its part of homologisation process. you can fiddle with mapping, ers recharge rates, etc. but limits, power unit modes, etc have to be identical.

All Power Units supplied by a single Power Unit Manufacturer must also be operated in the
same way, they must therefore be:
a. Identical according to the dossier for each Competitor.
b. Run with identical software for PU control.
c. Capable of being operated in precisely the same way.
Run with identical specifications of engine oil and fuel, and associated software calibrations,
unless an alternative supplier is preferred by a customer Competitor.

[diffuser]

fortunately, not only merc has merc pus. and i really doubt brown would be sandbagging for toto's sake. or vowles, with the overweight they have. and thats the trick, since fia only needs a sole racer pushing hard with mercedes pu.

This is true to a point, but they have Merc PU engineers at each team providing the parameters the PU can be used within. So it's fairly easy for Merc to just provide a certain operating range implied that is it's maximum without actually being its maximum. Especially at the start of new PU regs, works teams should have advantages, yes there is stipulation each manufacturer must provide the same information to all teams using their engine in respect to new mappings or utilisation as development and learnings progress. But there's obviously a "loophole" here where if Merc believe they don't have to use their engine at its max from the get go and believe 85% is enough to cover them without showing their entire hand, this has the knock on effect of not being obligated to provide that info to other teams if they themselves aren't using it at max. So it's not actually a guarantee having customer teams would expose PU strengths. They can still be hidden.

I am not sure what the timeframe is in needing to share new information, but one would assume Merc might find every opportunity possible to delay sharing information to McLaren, for example.

nah, its part of homologisation process. you can fiddle with mapping, ers recharge rates, etc. but limits, power unit modes, etc have to be identical.

All Power Units supplied by a single Power Unit Manufacturer must also be operated in the
same way, they must therefore be:
a. Identical according to the dossier for each Competitor.
b. Run with identical software for PU control.
c. Capable of being operated in precisely the same way.
Run with identical specifications of engine oil and fuel, and associated software calibrations,
unless an alternative supplier is preferred by a customer Competitor.

The only thing they don't get is when and where to regen and to deploy. Where the benefits or pitfalls are.The ability to regen or deploy is identical between all PUs from the same manufacturer. Obviously, with variations based on kilometers traveled in usage by the PU.