2026 Hybrid Powerunits

[mzso]

You might find that that particular statistic is no longer true, Tommy. But let’s not fg into politics again!

Also this is about powering a race car, energy flow limit in particular, not powerplants...

The car has to carry the energy on board in some form.

Which is also totally beside the point of my comment.

[gearboxtrouble]

The whole "road relevance" and "technical boundary" myth for F1 powertrains needs to die yesterday. The hybrid era has pretty much been the only time in modern F1 this was attempted and the sport is worse for it. There was nothing about pneumatic valved 20000 rpm NA V10/V8 engines made of beryllium alloys that was in any way relevant to pushing combustion technology for the road. There was nothing about 1500hp turbo engines that lasted one qualifying session that did anything for road car engine R&D. The DFV wasn't pushing the technical boundaries in the road car world for a long part of its existence. F1 shouldn't even try to push road car engine tech beyond scaling sustainable fuel supply chains. All they need are good racing engines that maximize power/weight and a low enough cost and with even just 2-3 manufacturers it would still go back to its mission of being the ultimate motorsport as it always should be.

[Mattchu]

The FIA have posted a lengthy post about ADUO, not a bad read.

https://www.fia.com/news/power-ups-how- ... -and-whats

[ACRO]

I don't understand how could you possibly take the sound off from motorsport.

I agree and comparing to late 90's -early 2000 formula1 today is only boring for me .

But we need to face the new reality : where since birth of F1 the engine was the heart and soul of the racing car and the fascination of the fans was to hear and feel the power of the car as well to see the bravery of the driver its now about smartest energy management / harvesting to win the race.

The engine is not the "heart and soul" anymore , its just a needed part inside the system .

[diffuser]

I don't understand how could you possibly take the sound off from motorsport.

I agree and comparing to late 90's -early 2000 formula1 today is only boring for me .

But we need to face the new reality : where since birth of F1 the engine was the heart and soul of the racing car and the fascination of the fans was to hear and feel the power of the car as well to see the bravery of the driver its now about smartest energy management / harvesting to win the race.

The engine is not the "heart and soul" anymore , its just a needed part inside the system .

That's cause we're old and have been programmed to associate the noise with power. The Pavlov's dog for motor racing

[BassVirolla]

I don't understand how could you possibly take the sound off from motorsport.

I agree and comparing to late 90's -early 2000 formula1 today is only boring for me .

But we need to face the new reality : where since birth of F1 the engine was the heart and soul of the racing car and the fascination of the fans was to hear and feel the power of the car as well to see the bravery of the driver its now about smartest energy management / harvesting to win the race.

The engine is not the "heart and soul" anymore , its just a needed part inside the system .

That's cause we're old and have been programmed to associate the noise with power. The Pavlov's dog for motor racing

Still, I want my bell before my meal.

[diffuser]

I agree and comparing to late 90's -early 2000 formula1 today is only boring for me .

But we need to face the new reality : where since birth of F1 the engine was the heart and soul of the racing car and the fascination of the fans was to hear and feel the power of the car as well to see the bravery of the driver its now about smartest energy management / harvesting to win the race.

The engine is not the "heart and soul" anymore , its just a needed part inside the system .

That's cause we're old and have been programmed to associate the noise with power. The Pavlov's dog for motor racing

Still, I want my bell before my meal.

[Vappy]

The secretely filmed 2014 ferraria f1 mule car showed a much higher revving V6 engine - somewhere closer to the 15,000 RPM maximum of that time (that the fuel flow couldn't actually reach in race spec...), and it sounded gorgeous. A proper whale. The honda engines of 2025 and previous brought a lovely character with the pops and bangs and all that, but that high pitch sound really brings an excitement to the child in me. It wouldn't go a miss if it was brought back.

[Badger]

F1 set for crunch 2027 talks - as proposed changes in doubt
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/f1-s ... -in-doubt/

Multiple sources have suggested to The Race that there is a clear split among manufacturers right now about when the changes should be targeted for – with some happy for this to come in 2027, while others want to hold back until 2028.

It is understood that it is only Mercedes and Red Bull currently in favour of an immediate switch. Despite both having shown strong performance from their power units under the new regulations, they are open to tweaks that would be beneficial to helping the show.

One is budgetary, with Audi in particular feeling that, as a manufacturer that has already invested heavily in the current rules set and is still learning about the challenges of F1, it is hard to justify investment in a multi-million-pound extra development project already when there is a budget cap in play.

Sources suggest that the spending required to revamp engines for next year could be in excess of $10million.

The other element that has triggered resistance among some manufacturers, and is believed to be something that Ferrari is especially mindful of, is what happens to F1’s catch-up mechanism, known as the Additional Development and Upgrade Opportunities (ADUO).

If power unit rules are opened up for next year to allow an increase of fuel flow then it is argued that the current plans under ADUO to allow some manufacturers extra spending and upgrades will have to be scrapped – otherwise they will have a big advantage when it comes to getting on top of the new designs

Microcosm into the dysfunction of politics. Almost everyone understands something needs to change, in this case they even agree on the direction of change that needs to happen, but they can't agree to do the change because everyone has a slightly different self interest on the details. Being potentially stuck with these engines for another year under these circumstances would be pathetic and embarrassing for F1.

Also, Audi is becoming more of an embarrassment by the day. They've done nothing for this sport except impose stupid demands, and now they want to obstruct solutions to the problems they've partially caused by complaining about a $10 million dollar charge? That's a rounding error for them. If you can't pay that you shouldn't be in F1.

Stefano and MBS need to put these clowns back in line, Bernie-style.

[mzso]

Politics! How surprising...

Being potentially stuck with these engines for another year under these circumstances would be pathetic and embarrassing for F1.

Hah! Try five years. They usually argue and drag out stuff, until they get to the point: "oh well, 1,5 years from now there's new formula coming why change now?" And they extend the current regs for one more year, because "we're not ready". So 2031 is the good bet, with whatever new engine formula (which might change a couple of times by then) they decide on...

[Badger]

Politics! How surprising...

Being potentially stuck with these engines for another year under these circumstances would be pathetic and embarrassing for F1.

Hah! Try five years. They usually argue and drag out stuff, until they get to the point: "oh well, 1,5 years from now there's new formula coming why change now?" And they extend the current regs for one more year, because "we're not ready". So 2031 is the good bet, with whatever new engine formula (which might change a couple of times by then) they decide on...

Multiple sources have suggested to The Race that there is a clear split among manufacturers right now about when the changes should be targeted for – with some happy for this to come in 2027, while others want to hold back until 2028.

Let's stick to the facts. There's clearly drive behind this 60/40 switch, the debate is over 2027 or 2028.

[mzso]

Multiple sources have suggested to The Race that there is a clear split among manufacturers right now about when the changes should be targeted for – with some happy for this to come in 2027, while others want to hold back until 2028.

Let's stick to the facts. There's clearly drive behind this 60/40 switch, the debate is over 2027 or 2028.

That facts of the rumors that the website published?
Anyway with F1 politics it's best to expect the most negative outcome and you will rarely get positively surprised.

[Badger]

Multiple sources have suggested to The Race that there is a clear split among manufacturers right now about when the changes should be targeted for – with some happy for this to come in 2027, while others want to hold back until 2028.

Let's stick to the facts. There's clearly drive behind this 60/40 switch, the debate is over 2027 or 2028.

That facts of the rumors that the website published?
Anyway with F1 politics it's best to expect the most negative outcome and you will rarely get positively surprised.

I think it's credible given where it's being reported. If you don't find the story credible there's no reason to form an opinion. Can't pick and choose what to believe when it's all being reported in the same article from the same sources.

[diffuser]

F1 set for crunch 2027 talks - as proposed changes in doubt
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/f1-s ... -in-doubt/

Multiple sources have suggested to The Race that there is a clear split among manufacturers right now about when the changes should be targeted for – with some happy for this to come in 2027, while others want to hold back until 2028.

It is understood that it is only Mercedes and Red Bull currently in favour of an immediate switch. Despite both having shown strong performance from their power units under the new regulations, they are open to tweaks that would be beneficial to helping the show.

One is budgetary, with Audi in particular feeling that, as a manufacturer that has already invested heavily in the current rules set and is still learning about the challenges of F1, it is hard to justify investment in a multi-million-pound extra development project already when there is a budget cap in play.

Sources suggest that the spending required to revamp engines for next year could be in excess of $10million.

The other element that has triggered resistance among some manufacturers, and is believed to be something that Ferrari is especially mindful of, is what happens to F1’s catch-up mechanism, known as the Additional Development and Upgrade Opportunities (ADUO).

If power unit rules are opened up for next year to allow an increase of fuel flow then it is argued that the current plans under ADUO to allow some manufacturers extra spending and upgrades will have to be scrapped – otherwise they will have a big advantage when it comes to getting on top of the new designs

Microcosm into the dysfunction of politics. Almost everyone understands something needs to change, in this case they even agree on the direction of change that needs to happen, but they can't agree to do the change because everyone has a slightly different self interest on the details. Being potentially stuck with these engines for another year under these circumstances would be pathetic and embarrassing for F1.

Also, Audi is becoming more of an embarrassment by the day. They've done nothing for this sport except impose stupid demands, and now they want to obstruct solutions to the problems they've partially caused by complaining about a $10 million dollar charge? That's a rounding error for them. If you can't pay that you shouldn't be in F1.

Stefano and MBS need to put these clowns back in line, Bernie-style.

You're blaming Audi cause they were the only ones to comment, when there is only 2 votes in favour of a 2027 change? The argument that the 2 in favour of the chnage for 2027 is a move to Minimize ADOU sounds about right.

[Badger]

You're blaming Audi cause they were the only ones to comment, when there is only 2 votes in favour of a 2027 change? The argument that the 2 in favour of the chnage for 2027 is a move to Minimize ADOU sounds about right.

I specifically mention Audi because they have been a core part of why these regs turned out the way they did. From F1 trying too swoon them to join with the power split, to them demanding things like the removal of the MGU-H, to then claiming they never insisted on the 50/50 split recently, but now opposing a change because of "cost" despite the cost being small in the context of F1 and tiny in the context of a major auto-manufacturer. They've added nothing to the product so far but caused a bunch of problems as far as I'm concerned.

The only manufacturer I can understand would be hesitant to switch for 2027 is Honda, just because they have a lot on their plate with how poorly that project is being managed.