Ferrari SF-26

[jjn9128]

Conclusions from studies where they cant even draw a legal wing should be taken with handfuls of salt.

[sucof]

Closing phase:

https://i.postimg.cc/xdb05HST/image.png

Positive value is downforce. Negative value is lift. Disclaimer: these are models, not the real thing (which is why they have different aero loads when the wing is closed). I believe we can still take the general behaviour associated with the rotation direction.

On the RB version, you see a reduction of downforce when closing. So perhaps it is a small lie that their wing is failing with properly closing, but if the driver closes it a tiny bit late, can experience too much of downforce loss when trying to break and or turn, hence loosing the rear end like Verstappen did...

Sadly I would agree somewhat of the banning these systems, as it relies on (based on rumours) the driver to close them manually, before breaking, hence the smallest of timing error can lead to crashes...
Remember, Ferrari had problems with it in the beginning as drivers complained, so it was delayed several weeks.

[AR3-GP]

Closing phase:

https://i.postimg.cc/xdb05HST/image.png

Positive value is downforce. Negative value is lift. Disclaimer: these are models, not the real thing (which is why they have different aero loads when the wing is closed). I believe we can still take the general behaviour associated with the rotation direction.

On the RB version, you see a reduction of downforce when closing. So perhaps it is a small lie that their wing is failing with properly closing, but if the driver closes it a tiny bit late, can experience too much of downforce loss when trying to break and or turn, hence loosing the rear end like Verstappen did...

1) Both wings experience lift generation during the closing phase. Everything below the yellow line is lift (opposite of downforce).



2) viewtopic.php?p=1349167#p1349167

[nico5]

Max would beg to disagree?

But the conclusions from the study depend on the real world designs replicating the motions from simulation. Red Bull for the moment have an unreliable actuation mechanism, so the theory of having faster pressure recovery is ironically voided if the mechanics fail to close the wing fully: viewtopic.php?p=1349167#p1349167

Kyle also seems to believe you're wrong.
https://youtu.be/-OXWw-nqtkI?si=MmlsYvrbEXfPQVO1&t=506

[AR3-GP]

Max would beg to disagree?

But the conclusions from the study depend on the real world designs replicating the motions from simulation. Red Bull for the moment have an unreliable actuation mechanism, so the theory of having faster pressure recovery is ironically voided if the mechanics fail to close the wing fully: viewtopic.php?p=1349167#p1349167

Kyle also seems to believe you're wrong.
https://youtu.be/-OXWw-nqtkI?si=MmlsYvrbEXfPQVO1&t=506

It is not my opinion. It is a CFD simulation. You are free to disagree with it.

[sucof]

Closing phase:

https://i.postimg.cc/xdb05HST/image.png

Positive value is downforce. Negative value is lift. Disclaimer: these are models, not the real thing (which is why they have different aero loads when the wing is closed). I believe we can still take the general behaviour associated with the rotation direction.

On the RB version, you see a reduction of downforce when closing. So perhaps it is a small lie that their wing is failing with properly closing, but if the driver closes it a tiny bit late, can experience too much of downforce loss when trying to break and or turn, hence loosing the rear end like Verstappen did...

1) Both wings experience lift generation during the closing phase. Everything below the yellow line is lift (opposite of downforce).
https://i.postimg.cc/ZR2S5WrM/image.png


2) viewtopic.php?p=1349167#p1349167

True, but my argument was about what caused the crash. Drivers have to manually close these wings, hence small delays can cause huge problems.

[sucof]

[AR3-GP]

True, but my argument was about what caused the crash. Drivers have to manually close these wings, hence small delays can cause huge problems.

viewtopic.php?p=1349167#p1349167

The wing physically did not close fully. It was not a delay. It was not an aerodynamic phenomenon. The driver stated this in Silverstone. A mechanical failure.

Viaplay: So what happened there?
Max: "Same as in Austria, rear wing didn't close entirely."

The footage from Austria demonstrated this. viewtopic.php?p=1349167#p1349167

There are several entities producing aero engagement bait because producing content and followers is valued more than being meticulous and correct. Kyle is reliable/credible, but he missed the simple explanation in this case. The others are not reliable.

[Brahmal]

To be clear, the only two methods for SLM deactivation are manual button press or automatic with braking, correct? Is there anything stopping the teams from automatically controlling SLM through GPS track position? I assume that's how they coordinate the power mapping and recharge timing for the MGUK system, but don't actually know.

This would allow them to close SLM automatically well ahead of any braking and turning on certain more dangerous corners, but would put another aspect of the vehicle out of the driver's control. Just an idea.

[Brahmal]

The wing physically did not close fully. It was not a delay. It was not an aerodynamic phenomenon. The driver stated this in Silverstone. A mechanical failure.

I'm wondering if this mechanical failure is due to the conditions present when closing "late" into a high-speed corner. Aero loads can shift pretty dramatically when under yaw conditions, so maybe closing SLM early on certain corners would solve RBR's problems?

[AR3-GP]

The wing physically did not close fully. It was not a delay. It was not an aerodynamic phenomenon. The driver stated this in Silverstone. A mechanical failure.

I'm wondering if this mechanical failure is due to the conditions present when closing "late" into a high-speed corner. Aero loads can shift pretty dramatically when under yaw conditions, so maybe closing SLM early on certain corners would solve RBR's problems?

It's all possible. Any high speeds are going to make the RB wing hard to close. This is one area where the Ferrari has a better fail-safe.

In Ferrari's case, the downforce creates a "torque" on the wing around it's rotation axis that works to force the wing shut even without power.



In Red Bull's case it is the opposite. There's a component from the drag on the wing which creates a torque which constantly tries to open the wing. That's why Red Bull's wing is harder to close near the end.


Add in extra vibrations and flexing (they brought lighter car in Austria), and it probably has caused more problems getting the movement to be work properly all the way to the end.

Sorry about the hasty diagrams but I hope that is somewhat clear.

[Brahmal]

It's all possible. Any high speeds are going to make the RB wing hard to close. This is one area where the Ferrari has a better fail-safe.

In Ferrari's case, the downforce creates a "torque" on the wing around it's rotation axis that works to force the wing shut even without power.

Isn't there a stipulation in the rules that all SLM mechanisms must fail closed?

[AR3-GP]

Isn't there a stipulation in the rules that all SLM mechanisms must fail closed?

Yes and you can do that with springs inside the mechanism (think like air brakes on a truck need air pressure to unstick the brakes). So that would try and push the wing closed when there's no actuator power, but if the mechanism itself binds because of flexing or other issue that only shows up on the track, then it doesn't really matter, it's not going to work.

With every design, there is what you want it to do, what it does in the factory when you show it to the FIA, and then what it does on the track...

[matteosc]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OXWw-nqtkI

This is really giving some powerful insights on how the Ferrari and Red Bull systems work.
If I understood everything correctly, the RedBull system may not produce more downforce during closure at all, because the flows are not attached on the underside. On top of that, the restoring of the downforce to "close wing" level may be even more delicate than on Ferrari's system.

Turns out there were reasons why Ferrari went down a more complicated path.

[matteosc]

Isn't there a stipulation in the rules that all SLM mechanisms must fail closed?

Yes and you can do that with springs inside the mechanism (think like air brakes on a truck need air pressure to unstick the brakes). So that would try and push the wing closed when there's no actuator power, but if the mechanism itself binds because of flexing or other issue that only shows up on the track, then it doesn't really matter, it's not going to work.

With every design, there is what you want it to do, what it does in the factory when you show it to the FIA, and then what it does on the track...

As explained in the video linked a few posts before, the issue may be on the fluid dynamic side and not on the mechanical closing of the wing. In substance, there may be situations in which the flow does not reattach and at that point there is nothing you can do.