Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[mzso]

Come on, there's a lot to blame Honda for, but this isn't on Honda. They didn't even have a chassis to test integration with just before the start of the season, and it got sorted once they did, in Sakura.

Cowell as a lead at Aston, and ex-Merc powertrains, was probably best-placed to smooth integration, schedule, oversee progress etc. Perhaps his get-out-of-jail card on this was the super-late car build-up, which was probably due to when Newey arrived, and the late design phase.

I doubt that Mercedes had tested their PU in their buyers' chassis'. Particularly Williams who were also late. But none of them had vibrations.
And the "got sorted" part apparently includes running at reduced power and extra weight to dampen vibrations.

[diffuser]

Integration didn't go well the first time did it? That's on Cowell.

Cowell is to blame, but because there was no proper integration, he was busy playing team principal, trying to turn the AMR25 into a rocket when he should have been preparing the team for Newey's arrival and keeping a close eye on what was happening at Honda.

The catalyst for the problem was Newey and Cardile arriving during the 2025 season. By then, Honda was already significantly behind, and it was too late to make the necessary changes in time for the start of the 2026 season.

To make matters worse, Newey didn't like the direction the AMR26 was heading and made major changes that also affected Honda, putting everyone even further behind. The chassis arrived too late for Honda to carry out meaningful testing before the season, leaving them with little opportunity beyond on-track running. The result was the perfect storm.

History has shown that in F1 Honda always needs help to make progress.
They can do it but needs guidance.
When McLaren helped they progressed.
When Redbull helped they progressed.
When Aston helped they progressed (allegedly). Every time they tried alone and didn't work.

If Newey would have showed up at the same time as Cowell, Oct 2024, impossible cause of his contract with RBR. Maybe we would have placed Cowell on HRC integration in November of 2024. Maybe Honda reacts a year earlier to a shortage of heavy hitters. Honda would still have been behind, not as far behind. The chassis, though, would have been on time and they would have probably found the vibrations/oscillations before hitting the track. Anyways, can't go back into the past to change things. All you can do is recover.

[diffuser]

Come on, there's a lot to blame Honda for, but this isn't on Honda. They didn't even have a chassis to test integration with just before the start of the season, and it got sorted once they did, in Sakura.

Cowell as a lead at Aston, and ex-Merc powertrains, was probably best-placed to smooth integration, schedule, oversee progress etc. Perhaps his get-out-of-jail card on this was the super-late car build-up, which was probably due to when Newey arrived, and the late design phase.

I doubt that Mercedes had tested their PU in their buyers' chassis'. Particularly Williams who were also late. But none of them had vibrations.
And the "got sorted" part apparently includes running at reduced power and extra weight to dampen vibrations.

true dat but all of them except Alpine had been running Merc PUs the previous year.

[mzso]

true dat but all of them except Alpine had been running Merc PUs the previous year.

For a different formula.

[bigblue]

And the "got sorted" part apparently includes running at reduced power and extra weight to dampen vibrations.

I don't recall anything from a reliable source about them running at reduced power. It's been speculated, but I don't think anyone's said on or off record that this is the case, nor that there's been any other definitive evidence? Which of running at full power or at reduced power, given where they are, would be the scenario that reflects better on Honda is another matter.

I don't think the weight penalty is known either, in theory there might not be one and the fixes could be weight neutral, though that would seem extremely unlikely. I recall Orihara(?) being asked what the countermeasures were, but he declined to elaborate, in some Japanese article I read via auto-translation.

[GhostF1]

true dat but all of them except Alpine had been running Merc PUs the previous year.

For a different formula.

Where a majority of the power unit is very similar. As mentioned previously. Koji Watanabe specifically pointed out the vibrations produced by the power unit are almost identical to those produced in the last engine and they were not an issue with Red Bull at all. Integration between both entity's is key here, amateur to imply otherwise.

What is this narrative Honda needs help to succeed? It's beyond short sighted and there are valid explanations that have hindered them, but it seems the drama avenue is preferred over actual technical analysis.

- 2015: Joined earlier than desired, had been totally out of F1, needed to rebuild, no existing engineers from other teams were employed to assist in engine design (as is the case with Audi and RBPT and with a similar ICE and reduced complexity). Admitted underestimating PU complexity.
- 2016: Engine greatly improved, but hamstrung by restrictive token system preventing desired redesign and fast updates. Band-aid fixes like the raised intake plenum for a larger turbo were necessary.
- 2017: Token system dropped. New engine architecture introduced, still learning/researching pre-chamber capabilities and split turbo, physical size restricted by team, very pre-mature MGU-H design.
- 2018: Large step forward with Toro Rosso, Honda Jet staff brought in for MGU-H. Surpasses Renault
- 2019-2020: Continual steps forward, power unit is competitive and winning races. Surpasses Ferrari in 2019 (I'm ignoring the dodgy Ferrari engine for the first half of the season).
- 2021-2025: New PU architecture, which proceeded to be class of the field for 5 years, surpassing all rivals in most measurable aspects. Reliability, deployment, energy harvesting, driveability, power.

- 2026: Returned and began work 12 months later than competition with reduced staff. Avenues where Honda had great advantage on the ICE were completely removed by new regs. Reduced compression ratio, removal of MGU-H, removal of in cylinder pressure sensors during race weekend operations. All which completely stripped Honda's combustion technique from the previous engine. Forced to start again, most previous learnings nullified. New engine is down on output, matched with a very premature chassis while also learning how to integrate with a completely new team. Engine team is back to full strength early in the season.

By the sounds, the second specification has promise and they will only improve from here. They have only ever improved, regardless of where they started and end up surpassing rivals, so their development speed is impressive. If anything, it should give confidence for the future of what they can clearly do and have demonstrated. It is just disappointing uninformed management decisions cause them to flip flop in and out of F1, causing most of these issues. Going forward though with HRC now in charge as a separate entity to the Honda Global board room, that behaviour should halt entirely.

tl;dr: They have always started while facing adversity, but always recover and do so quickly. Literally zero basis for this "can't do it on their own" narrative.

[mzso]

And the "got sorted" part apparently includes running at reduced power and extra weight to dampen vibrations.

I don't recall anything from a reliable source about them running at reduced power. It's been speculated, but I don't think anyone's said on or off record that this is the case, nor that there's been any other definitive evidence? Which of running at full power or at reduced power, given where they are, would be the scenario that reflects better on Honda is another matter.

I don't think the weight penalty is known either, in theory there might not be one and the fixes could be weight neutral, though that would seem extremely unlikely. I recall Orihara(?) being asked what the countermeasures were, but he declined to elaborate, in some Japanese article I read via auto-translation.

Well Wazari said they can't go full power until the mounting system is redesigned. And another forum member in the past week or so referred to him that they can't go full power because the fuel dissolved the lubricant.

Think of it what you will.

Probably every countermeasure would include added weight. But I think Newey explicitly said some weight was added because of it.

[mzso]

tl;dr: They have always started while facing adversity, but always recover and do so quickly. Literally zero basis for this "can't do it on their own" narrative.

It's not adversity if you create the issues yourself. Particularly for this year, with the lack of respect, effort put into the task. You're not supposed to be putting back the team together when the PU is already deployed and racing.

For 2015 gross overconfidence seems to have been a huge factor.

[GhostF1]

tl;dr: They have always started while facing adversity, but always recover and do so quickly. Literally zero basis for this "can't do it on their own" narrative.

It's not adversity if you create the issues yourself. Particularly for this year, with the lack of respect, effort put into the task. You're not supposed to be putting back the team together when the PU is already deployed and racing.

For 2015 gross overconfidence seems to have been a huge factor.

False. It doesn't matter where the issues or roadblocks stem from. That doesn't define adversity.
2015 was exactly what I said it was. A total underestimation of the PU complexity, which they publicly admitted to and took full responsibility for. 2026 you can see even back in 2023 they were saying they will need to rebuild their entire infrastructure after leaving and this would take time. Increasing the strength of your PU team during the season is a negative how? Because it wasn't timely enough? We all knew this. We had grossly high expectations for this collaboration considering how unprepared they were and this feeds all the negative chatter into something bigger.

If we are really honest and you use this forum to look for someone to blame, look at Aston Martin who, regardless of time constraints, somehow managed to build a chassis that is not just slow, but responsible for 4 seconds of a 5 second lap time deficit. Borderline unheard of. My entire point is this narrative "Honda can't do it on their own" is braindead DTS slop. The noises from both camps after their first updates are good.

[dren]

true dat but all of them except Alpine had been running Merc PUs the previous year.

For a different formula.

Where a majority of the power unit is very similar. As mentioned previously. Koji Watanabe specifically pointed out the vibrations produced by the power unit are almost identical to those produced in the last engine and they were not an issue with Red Bull at all. Integration between both entity's is key here, amateur to imply otherwise.

I think the major issue was the K is attached to the chassis now, where it was attached to the ICE in the past.

[diffuser]

For a different formula.

Where a majority of the power unit is very similar. As mentioned previously. Koji Watanabe specifically pointed out the vibrations produced by the power unit are almost identical to those produced in the last engine and they were not an issue with Red Bull at all. Integration between both entity's is key here, amateur to imply otherwise.

I think the major issue was the K is attached to the chassis now, where it was attached to the ICE in the past.

You mean it's connected to the chassis and the ICE now, while only to the ICE before. Still if that is true the chassis mount from the K to the chassis could have designed absorbed the vibration.

Also apparently there were vibrations but also osculations from thew combustion.

[GhostF1]

Where a majority of the power unit is very similar. As mentioned previously. Koji Watanabe specifically pointed out the vibrations produced by the power unit are almost identical to those produced in the last engine and they were not an issue with Red Bull at all. Integration between both entity's is key here, amateur to imply otherwise.

I think the major issue was the K is attached to the chassis now, where it was attached to the ICE in the past.

You mean it's connected to the chassis and the ICE now, while only to the ICE before. Still if that is true the chassis mount from the K to the chassis could have designed absorbed the vibration.

Also apparently there were vibrations but also osculations from thew combustion.

Yeah would agree it definitely seems to be the case. The collective team just did a poor job of integrating (and isolating) the power unit properly.
After Hungary and some of the comments Alonso made during FP about worsening vibrations, I think it's fair to say the drivers will "feel" a degrading engine more and more with these regs with the K being mounted the way it is, because it was mentioned it was alleviated by swapping to a fresher unit and retiring the older unit.
Although, who knows, because this new power unit in Zandvoort might bring sweeping changes to how it's integrated in general.

[Espresso]

Where a majority of the power unit is very similar. As mentioned previously. Koji Watanabe specifically pointed out the vibrations produced by the power unit are almost identical to those produced in the last engine and they were not an issue with Red Bull at all. Integration between both entity's is key here, amateur to imply otherwise.

To sum it up…
MCL: we build the car you fit in the engine.
RB: let’s build it together.
AM: we build the car you fit the engine.

hmmmm…

[peewon]

Where a majority of the power unit is very similar. As mentioned previously. Koji Watanabe specifically pointed out the vibrations produced by the power unit are almost identical to those produced in the last engine and they were not an issue with Red Bull at all. Integration between both entity's is key here, amateur to imply otherwise.

To sum it up…
MCL: we build the car you fit in the engine.
RB: let’s build it together.
AM: we build the car you fit the engine.

hmmmm…

They partnered with Red Bull at a more mature stage of the regulations and not at the start so its not really comparing apples to apples.

[FW17]

true dat but all of them except Alpine had been running Merc PUs the previous year.

For a different formula.

Where a majority of the power unit is very similar. As mentioned previously. Koji Watanabe specifically pointed out the vibrations produced by the power unit are almost identical to those produced in the last engine and they were not an issue with Red Bull at all. Integration between both entity's is key here, amateur to imply otherwise.

What is this narrative Honda needs help to succeed? It's beyond short sighted and there are valid explanations that have hindered them, but it seems the drama avenue is preferred over actual technical analysis.

- 2015: Joined earlier than desired, had been totally out of F1, needed to rebuild, no existing engineers from other teams were employed to assist in engine design (as is the case with Audi and RBPT and with a similar ICE and reduced complexity). Admitted underestimating PU complexity.
- 2016: Engine greatly improved, but hamstrung by restrictive token system preventing desired redesign and fast updates. Band-aid fixes like the raised intake plenum for a larger turbo were necessary.
- 2017: Token system dropped. New engine architecture introduced, still learning/researching pre-chamber capabilities and split turbo, physical size restricted by team, very pre-mature MGU-H design.
- 2018: Large step forward with Toro Rosso, Honda Jet staff brought in for MGU-H. Surpasses Renault
- 2019-2020: Continual steps forward, power unit is competitive and winning races. Surpasses Ferrari in 2019 (I'm ignoring the dodgy Ferrari engine for the first half of the season).
- 2021-2025: New PU architecture, which proceeded to be class of the field for 5 years, surpassing all rivals in most measurable aspects. Reliability, deployment, energy harvesting, driveability, power.

- 2026: Returned and began work 12 months later than competition with reduced staff. Avenues where Honda had great advantage on the ICE were completely removed by new regs. Reduced compression ratio, removal of MGU-H, removal of in cylinder pressure sensors during race weekend operations. All which completely stripped Honda's combustion technique from the previous engine. Forced to start again, most previous learnings nullified. New engine is down on output, matched with a very premature chassis while also learning how to integrate with a completely new team. Engine team is back to full strength early in the season.

By the sounds, the second specification has promise and they will only improve from here. They have only ever improved, regardless of where they started and end up surpassing rivals, so their development speed is impressive. If anything, it should give confidence for the future of what they can clearly do and have demonstrated. It is just disappointing uninformed management decisions cause them to flip flop in and out of F1, causing most of these issues. Going forward though with HRC now in charge as a separate entity to the Honda Global board room, that behaviour should halt entirely.

tl;dr: They have always started while facing adversity, but always recover and do so quickly. Literally zero basis for this "can't do it on their own" narrative.

Always wondered what would have happened if Honda had supplied Sauber for 2017 alongside Mclaren

Or Ron bought Manor F1 and signed Honda for 2017 following his ouster.