2026 Aston Martin Aramco Formula One Team

[kptaylor]

Yeah, that's why it doesn't really make sense for Honda to come out with another Update in 2026. If they did, it would not advance the 2027 PU any further. At best, the 2027 PU, would be the same as if the didn't have a 2nd upgrade in 2026. There is an outside chance that a 2nd update would steal PU resources and have a negative affect on R&D progress.

Normally I'd agree, but without getting actual track time to test upgrades I'd prefer they do another upgrade this season so it can be tested in racing rather than replicate the issues they've had this season again.

[Farnborough]

Wonder if they have a way to measure/visualize fuel flow aerodynamics from air intake/fuel injection to exhaust?

I don't know the answer to that, or if it would be useful.

They have made reasonable statement though about the primary issue they're struggling with, combustion event stability/repeatability/consistency. Which does lend credence to isopano6 views about fuel supplied and it's effectiveness.

The FIA fuel regulation is a control/limitation and not a "specification" as such. What's actually in the mix is of course vital to the above failings.

Also, Honda are without secondary team (Audi too) Aramco the same, there's no comparator available to understand where they are.

As to development of ICE, if they knew for certain what was wrong, they'd probably not made this one in the first place, and we wouldn't be having this thread direction.

This comes back to that ssme question, as to exactly what is not performing, then comes the further part as to what needs to change, and how it has to change.

It frustrates me when people simplify the matter by stating, 'It's the fuel'. How can anyone make such a claim? If someone were to say that Honda and Aramco are collaborating to optimize combustion efficiency, I could accept that. It is akin to two individuals observing a glass filled to the midpoint: one views it as half full, while the other sees it as half empty. 2 sides of the same coin, one side is the fuel, the other is the ICE manufacturer tring to control the fuel and the coin is combustion.

I'll put the point that, no, its not like that. Certainly not in deep R&D decisions. That gives far too simplistic a view which does not translate. Its just soundbite commentary in reality.

It could be though, multiple person looking at half full glass and not knowing just what it contains and if each would drink it, with the possibility of the result being fatal

We, out here cannot possibly know what's the effect of the fuel mix in place. More to the point, that doesn't appear clear to those involved either. We're in uninformed position to even speculate in reality.

Neither you or I can discount this fuel element. Honda's experience (far greater than many) is telling us publicly that they have problem controlling each combustion event in live running. Fuel is absolutely dead centre of that equation, for which it just cannot be discounted on here with the level of public knowledge available.

One thing for sure, a shortcoming in this element, fuel, will completely negate logical progress through mechanical design and implementation.

We here, just cannot be definitive on the topic.

[mzso]

Neither you or I can discount this fuel element. Honda's experience (far greater than many) is telling us publicly that they have problem controlling each combustion event in live running. Fuel is absolutely dead centre of that equation, for which it just cannot be discounted on here with the level of public knowledge available.

On the other hand there is absolutely no reason to think that the fuel is a factor in Honda's gap. The fuel challenge is the same for fuel suppliers.
I heard neither Honda, nor any other entity in F1 said that they have a handicap, because the fuel performs poorly compared to others. Honda pretty much only said that we're behind. Plus it was released that they broke up the PU team and didn't really put it back together until sometime this year. Like opening the umbrella, when you're already soaking wet.
The fuel is a distraction, that by the looks of it arose in this forum.

[Bence]

Can you prove it?

[diffuser]

Neither you or I can discount this fuel element. Honda's experience (far greater than many) is telling us publicly that they have problem controlling each combustion event in live running. Fuel is absolutely dead centre of that equation, for which it just cannot be discounted on here with the level of public knowledge available.

On the other hand there is absolutely no reason to think that the fuel is a factor in Honda's gap. The fuel challenge is the same for fuel suppliers.
I heard neither Honda, nor any other entity in F1 said that they have a handicap, because the fuel performs poorly compared to others. Honda pretty much only said that we're behind. Plus it was released that they broke up the PU team and didn't really put it back together until sometime this year. Like opening the umbrella, when you're already soaking wet.
The fuel is a distraction, that by the looks of it arose in this forum.

Right, Honda know if other manufacturers faced the same problems and have resolved them with combustion design/process changes.

[diffuser]

Can you prove it?

I see you've understood nothing. Maybe not even read anything.

[zoroastar]

if all we needed to do was wait on aramco to bring a decent fuel, and honda would suddenly gain 50-100 horsepower. somehow that sounds more ridiculous than the gearbox theory.

[Ashwinv16]

I have been looking back at some of the races since the Hungary Aero upgrades and I just want to hypothesize that for all the criticism Honda is getting for it's ICE, I think Honda might have really nailed the electrical side of things, especially after fixing the vibrations (Reliability still a ?). That fact that the car gains nearly 1-2 seconds from Quali (where recharge is limited by FIA) compared to the race where more recharge is possible shows this. They are able to stay on the battery power for longer compared to the Ferrari and Red bulls and even the merc engine (Gasly the only close comparison especially the last laps of dutch gp, where Honda simply had better electrical management than Gasly's merc engine and that's how he managed to stay ahead in the straights, while Alonso did the work in the traction zones) (but also the way it works means they also need to lift and coast longer to recharge the battery more to make up for the dreadful engine which is why Aston still managed to keep up in the Curva grande section to the Cadillac's but had to lift and coast anyways)

Which comes to the point. For 2027, if FIA actually is to help Honda, the best thing they can do is increase the a harvest limits in quali and if that happens, then we know for sure FIA is helping out. Again just a hypothesis.

[Bence]

Can you prove it?

I see you've understood nothing. Maybe not even read anything.

???

[diffuser]

Can you prove it?

I see you've understood nothing. Maybe not even read anything.

???

Maybe I don't understand what you mean by "Can you prove it?" Can I prove what?

[ispano6]

I for one wasn't a fan of either. Actually I was quite optimistic about Honda. But it has become increasingly clear, the magnitude of their failings and dysfunction. Disorganized, neglectful, and left behind technologically.
And they only started to hastily reconfigure and put the effort required in the development program after they were exposed as having the clear distant worst engine/PU, despite two newcomers.

All criticism is well earned. It's not about overcoming challenges, it's about climbing out of a pit they dug themselves into. The challenges were the same for established manufacturers, and considerably more for RB and Audi, who had to put together a new programme, from ground up.

Clearly you're not understanding the challenge that every team is facing with Mercedes being the one team that has found the ideal solution. RedBull Ford have a different hybrid challenge and Ferrari Audi and Honda all have a similar one. Beating the Mercedes/Petronas benchmark. Honda has identified they aren't able to achieve the high speed combustion they enjoyed with the last rules set given this compression ratio and new fuel partner. Watanabe and Kakuda has mentioned fuel partner at least 5 times as part of the challenge. People just seem to ignore what they are saying. It's a major facepalm honestly. Again, I say is there some unspoken rule that you can't mention the Saudi brand Aramco in any negative light in the F1 press, either explicitly or inferred? Are they afraid of some backlash from the Saudis?

What's annoying to me is no reporter or journalist has the balls or brains to ask a criticizing question about Aramco/Shell/BP to bring up fuel as a differentiator. Of course they won't be able to comment about other teams fuel performance but people seem to think all fuel and combustion is the same. It is not. And Asaki, the previous Formula 1 head has mentioned looking into the loopholes of the regulations. If there is a loophole that exists in the chemical and mechanical realm to be exploited, the only way to really know one exists is if that loophole is closed or quietly mentioned to the team(s) exploiting them. Otherwise the loophole is allowed and an advantage that makes a difference.

[diffuser]

I for one wasn't a fan of either. Actually I was quite optimistic about Honda. But it has become increasingly clear, the magnitude of their failings and dysfunction. Disorganized, neglectful, and left behind technologically.
And they only started to hastily reconfigure and put the effort required in the development program after they were exposed as having the clear distant worst engine/PU, despite two newcomers.

All criticism is well earned. It's not about overcoming challenges, it's about climbing out of a pit they dug themselves into. The challenges were the same for established manufacturers, and considerably more for RB and Audi, who had to put together a new programme, from ground up.

Clearly you're not understanding the challenge that every team is facing with Mercedes being the one team that has found the ideal solution. RedBull Ford have a different hybrid challenge and Ferrari Audi and Honda all have a similar one. Beating the Mercedes/Petronas benchmark. Honda has identified they aren't able to achieve the high speed combustion they enjoyed with the last rules set given this compression ratio and new fuel partner. Watanabe and Kakuda has mentioned fuel partner at least 5 times as part of the challenge. People just seem to ignore what they are saying. It's a major facepalm honestly. Again, I say is there some unspoken rule that you can't mention the Saudi brand Aramco in any negative light in the F1 press, either explicitly or inferred? Are they afraid of some backlash from the Saudis?

What's annoying to me is no reporter or journalist has the balls or brains to ask a criticizing question about Aramco/Shell/BP to bring up fuel as a differentiator. Of course they won't be able to comment about other teams fuel performance but people seem to think all fuel and combustion is the same. It is not. And Asaki, the previous Formula 1 head has mentioned looking into the loopholes of the regulations. If there is a loophole that exists in the chemical and mechanical realm to be exploited, the only way to really know one exists is if that loophole is closed or quietly mentioned to the team(s) exploiting them. Otherwise the loophole is allowed and an advantage that makes a difference.

Looking for the possibility of loopholes is so low on the event horizon that it has not even risen to the point of speculation yet. If there was a viable complaint made by Honda on the Fuel to the FIA. We would have heard of it, it would have leaked like the merc compressionratio issue.

You can put any of these manufacturer fuels into any road vehicle with an ICE and it would run at lease as well as it does on pump gas.

It's still gas, it's customized, with the reg restrictions, to the ICE manufacturer's demands.

[mzso]

I have been looking back at some of the races since the Hungary Aero upgrades and I just want to hypothesize that for all the criticism Honda is getting for it's ICE, I think Honda might have really nailed the electrical side of things, especially after fixing the vibrations (Reliability still a ?). That fact that the car gains nearly 1-2 seconds from Quali (where recharge is limited by FIA) compared to the race where more recharge is possible shows this. They are able to stay on the battery power for longer compared to the Ferrari and Red bulls and even the merc engine (Gasly the only close comparison especially the last laps of dutch gp, where Honda simply had better electrical management than Gasly's merc engine and that's how he managed to stay ahead in the straights, while Alonso did the work in the traction zones) (but also the way it works means they also need to lift and coast longer to recharge the battery more to make up for the dreadful engine which is why Aston still managed to keep up in the Curva grande section to the Cadillac's but had to lift and coast anyways)

Which comes to the point. For 2027, if FIA actually is to help Honda, the best thing they can do is increase the a harvest limits in quali and if that happens, then we know for sure FIA is helping out. Again just a hypothesis.

I don't think it's likely that the electric side is a differentiator between PUs in any meaningful way, at this point in time. The power and battery capacity is capped, and there's a minimum weight. By now the teams learned how to program charging/deployment for the best effect and the drivers got a feel to how to condition their driving.

[mzso]

I for one wasn't a fan of either. Actually I was quite optimistic about Honda. But it has become increasingly clear, the magnitude of their failings and dysfunction. Disorganized, neglectful, and left behind technologically.
And they only started to hastily reconfigure and put the effort required in the development program after they were exposed as having the clear distant worst engine/PU, despite two newcomers.

All criticism is well earned. It's not about overcoming challenges, it's about climbing out of a pit they dug themselves into. The challenges were the same for established manufacturers, and considerably more for RB and Audi, who had to put together a new programme, from ground up.

Clearly you're not understanding the challenge that every team is facing with Mercedes being the one team that has found the ideal solution. RedBull Ford have a different hybrid challenge and Ferrari Audi and Honda all have a similar one. Beating the Mercedes/Petronas benchmark. Honda has identified they aren't able to achieve the high speed combustion they enjoyed with the last rules set given this compression ratio and new fuel partner. Watanabe and Kakuda has mentioned fuel partner at least 5 times as part of the challenge. People just seem to ignore what they are saying. It's a major facepalm honestly. Again, I say is there some unspoken rule that you can't mention the Saudi brand Aramco in any negative light in the F1 press, either explicitly or inferred? Are they afraid of some backlash from the Saudis?

What's annoying to me is no reporter or journalist has the balls or brains to ask a criticizing question about Aramco/Shell/BP to bring up fuel as a differentiator. Of course they won't be able to comment about other teams fuel performance but people seem to think all fuel and combustion is the same. It is not. And Asaki, the previous Formula 1 head has mentioned looking into the loopholes of the regulations. If there is a loophole that exists in the chemical and mechanical realm to be exploited, the only way to really know one exists is if that loophole is closed or quietly mentioned to the team(s) exploiting them. Otherwise the loophole is allowed and an advantage that makes a difference.

Perhaps they don't read this topic and your comments, that's why. And there's no other source of fuel being a performance differentiator, or being a persistent problem.
And the media likes to spread anything newly uncovered and sensational.

As for mentions, there's always a token mention of partners, since they also put money in the project.

[Ashwinv16]

This weekend spells a lot of trouble for Aston Martin....
- Williams upgrade could push them closer to the top 8 as they rumors that they car might be a lot better than initially anticipated (they passed a crash test that they though would take longer so are bringing more upgrades and a brand new chassis, outside of what was initially planned)
- Sergio Perez is undoubtedly one of the best at Baku (probably would say the best in race pace) and will likely put that Cadillac in a place it's not meant to be + there are upgrades coming to the car.
- We could genuinely leave Baku last in the standings

On Other news Honda 2027 MotoGP division apparently cooked with their 850cc engine. Here's top hope they do the same here soon for 2027.