Fact vs. Opinion on F1Technical.net

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, if you ask me, I'm overwhelmed by confrontations be them either about fact or fiction.

However, do not ask for my opinion: I know which it is.

Fortunately, this is a technical forum, so let's start the analysis of why this technical forum is degrading its technicality, in my style:

Reported posts 2008/2009


I'm going to have dinner, I'll come back in one hour or so. I also want to watch the news on TV, so perhaps it'll take more than one hour and I have to balance sincerity and prudence, as always.

[Giblet]

I have learned very much from posting here. I used to love arguing, found it kind of fun, but then I realized just how lame it was(is) for our moderator.

I have been very careful to not post what I think is correct as fact. The only times I post info now as if it is a fact, is when it is quoted from someone else.

There were a lot of untruths that I had taken as fact. A good example was that I heard on some F1 broadcast that F1 engines were reaching a point where the air entering the engine was near supersonic. I took this to heart as thinking that around 22,000 RPM was a hard limit due to the air speed.

When I presented this as fact, I was quickly lambasted as an idiot, and had to back up (beep beep beep), put my ducks in a row, and take the fact that while I was the utmost authority on F1 amongst my friends, I am just another fool here.

But.... when my mind was opened, I have learned a lot. I have even started reading magazines like Racetech and Racecar Engineering. A lot of it is over my head, but understanding what a trip strip is doesn't take an engineering degree, but watching SpeedTV might never tell you what it is anyways.

I have had knowledgable people on here see something that they think is wrong, and go off like no tomorrow. Like when talking about Active Suspension, I mentioned Alex Zanardi crashing in 93 in a Lotus, and I got told by a few people that Alex Zanardi didn't race in F1 until much later.

Point is, I don't argue anymore, unless I have looked into it and find the post wrong.

Discussing facts, debating opinion, and debating facts, and discussing opinion can all be done without arguing.

As for my quote at the beginning of the thread, glad it gave a laugh

[Pandamasque]

The fact is that this thread was created in Formula One General Chat forum and thus is off topic.

Clearly Conceptual had a different opinion while creating it.
My opinion is that it shouldn't have been created in the first place. There are and will be plenty of members presenting their opinion as facts. In my opinion (that happens to be a fact) nothing can be done about that, and nothing will.

[ringo]

I think it's best if a poster uses words like "I think" or "I am of the opinion" etc., words that indicate speculation or a notion. The posts don't have to be labeled as fact or opinion. It is also easy to decipher which posts are ramblings and which ones are referenced facts or plain logical facts.
The only times confusion can occur is with opinionated facts, for instance misuse of equations. Or using an arbitrary principle to support another subject as fact. But this is quickly cleared up by whoever has a better grasp of the topic eventually, so i don't mind how things are at the moment. It's kind of hard when F1 teams aren't really releasing info or documentaries so much.

[Fil]

Yawn..

Everyone knows that everything you read on the internet is true, particularly forums.

That is not my opinion, that is fact and has been proven.

Link

[Ray]

I think, to the happiness of many, I'll keep my mouth shut and stay away from this one!

[Professor]

Yawn..

Everyone knows that everything you read on the internet is true, particularly forums.

That is not my opinion, that is fact and has been proven.

Link

I like that! Thanks. But, by definition, all opinions are true. But what is untrue is when one forges a false opinion (with ill intent) just because it differs from some other's opinion. Some people choose to be the anti-matter to another's matter. But, it doesn't really matter except that it drags all of us bystanders into the matter. That's my opinion, promulgated in spite of the fact that my opinion does not really matter.

Sorry Guys, just my opinion on the matter.

[Conceptual]

I guess I just don't understand the difficulty in clarifying posts.

If you are speculating, say so.

If you are presenting data, give a link.

If you are just rambling, then ramble on.

I am by no means saying that I am a truth Nazi. I just feel that statements like "So and so will NOT make it to the grid in Bahrain", or statements such as "This idea will NOT work, because I said so." aren't worth the time it takes to post, let alone read.

When I post, and several others on this board post, they let the reader know up front that it is what they "think/feel/believe". Those posts are the most interesting because it is the perspective of another individual, and how they assimilate reality.

Blatant nonsense posts that have no basis in reality are rediculous, especially when they come from people with high level degrees or high amounts of experience.

I just don't see why it is so difficult to use a bit of modesty, as well as forum decorum when making posts.

Posting on any internet forum is in fact public speaking, and the first rule of public speaking is that it is the responsibility of the speaker to ensure understanding in the listener.

Those that know that, and still refuse to administer their responsibility is either spreading misinformation on purpose, or think it is cute to teach people bullshit.

Either way, it is the act of an immature child, and not something that this board was known for when I was originally invited to join.

I would like to hear from Tomba on this, but he may choose to stay away... Even though his word would be the end of the discussion.

[donskar]

I'm at work, so please pardon my brevity (and typoes!)

I did not find a choice in the poll that fits my opinion.

I agree completely with a quote that opened this topic:

it really bothers me that there are members that try to make others believe their opinion is actually a known fact

In fact, I would go a good deal further. (Much of what follows is neither fact nor opinion, but something just as important -- my feeling/perception as a human being.)

I used to be a very frequent contributor. The reason I seldom visit this site and post even less frequently is that the fun/openness/exchange of ideas seems to have degenerated. I perceive (whether it is meant or not) an undercurrent of nastiness or dogmatism (I'm searching for a gentle term).

I feel (opinion) that some posters care less about sharing an opinion or position than they do forcing their opinion/position on others. When I read someone taking a position and then telling others to agree or "STFU," then I know (meaning fact for me) that the forum has been corrupted.

It's a shame (IMHO).

[Jersey Tom]

Bottom line: It's the interwebs. You're gonna get a mixed pile of malarkey no matter way.

[Rod_in_Chile]

What many believe to be true today, the same people may find to be false tomorrow, poeple once knew the world to be flat and the sun to orbit the earth.

Some scientific facts are disputed by others for example climate change.

Also remamber that science is built on theory and models to explain what we percieve to be reality, scientists know that some of those theories and models are flawed but continue to use them until something better comes along.

Basically I am saying relax a little guys, take on the good stuff you read and ignore the rest, thank god we don't all think alike imagine how boring that would be

[tok-tokkie]

I can't remember who has posted opinion as fact in the past so get pretty confused on threads about topics I know little where factual posts are countered by opinion posts where I can't distinguish between them. I accept that for topics which are obviously opinion based (driver ability for example) but on technical topics (my interest) it really debases this site for me.

Slowly I am starting to remember who the opinionated posters are. On another board I frequent there is an 'ignore' button which makes each post by someone you have chosen to 'ignore' be empty. I have not used it there. If that person's post is quoted then you do see his posting - and also he is unable to edit the quoted version of his post. For a scatter-brain like me it would be helpful if I could filter out the opinionated posters - I think I would get to know who they are quicker & could then un-ignore them without getting confused.

[axle]

Totally agree, instead of differing opinions being accepted they tend to be lambasted and ridiculed by an overly opinionated minority.
There is also a perma undercurrent of negativity which eminates from those individuals. They seem to like to focus on all that can be wrong with F1/life. The same people regularly get on their soapbox too, banging on and on and on...about something they "believe".

IMO the moderation team should be bigger and have more impact on those sorts of posts.

I'm at work, so please pardon my brevity (and typoes!)

I did not find a choice in the poll that fits my opinion.

I agree completely with a quote that opened this topic:

it really bothers me that there are members that try to make others believe their opinion is actually a known fact

In fact, I would go a good deal further. (Much of what follows is neither fact nor opinion, but something just as important -- my feeling/perception as a human being.)

I used to be a very frequent contributor. The reason I seldom visit this site and post even less frequently is that the fun/openness/exchange of ideas seems to have degenerated. I perceive (whether it is meant or not) an undercurrent of nastiness or dogmatism (I'm searching for a gentle term).

I feel (opinion) that some posters care less about sharing an opinion or position than they do forcing their opinion/position on others. When I read someone taking a position and then telling others to agree or "STFU," then I know (meaning fact for me) that the forum has been corrupted.

It's a shame (IMHO).

[Richard]

I assume that every post is written as casual conversation unless proven otherwise. It does help to sprinkle "I think" or "I guess" or "perhaps" to remind people of the context.

However, I think a lot of this is driven by personal politics. When we see these things flare up it is clear that people have gone straight for the emotional and launched a personal attack. If you disagree, than calmly offer an alternative version.

Try not to fight over facts as if they are binary right/wrong. Why bother? Life's got lots of shades of grey, most facts have several interpretations.

Most importantly, life's too short.

[Giblet]

If the active topics on the front page were not updated every time they were changed, but on an hourly or some other basis, then people might be less inclined to jump into a thread that they were not part of already just to argue, or just to fire back at that name in all caps that just popped in to opinionate all over the place.

Or if the messages on the front page were arranged by category, then technical threads that might not have a lot of chatter and pith very quickly put the active technical topics that seem to go to go on longer but with more intellect, would remain on the front page longer, enticing more users into these threads. This would give the most active topics in categories other than general equal eyeball time, and if anything the front page posts should be skewed towards the technical, at the expense of the non.