Richards: F1 aero excessive and irrelevant

[Ciro Pabón]

bj, thanks for your rant.

I don't watch soccer on TV, I play soccer. Same goes for racing: I race (in my very humble way) much more than I watch racing. That's what this forum tries to do: to impulse people to race... in a racetrack.

I didn't mean to glorify or criticize sports: they are children games, for the love of Pete.

Either you enjoy them by participating in them or you miss the whole point of them. They're fun, they're a game, they're to be enjoyed.. and mainly by children! Once you stop saying "let's play" and start to say "let's work", soccer (or racing) is dead for you. That's what they bring to the world: joy. Remember when you were a kid?

I hope that's good for you: I heartily agree with your phrase: "If your going to change it, change it to make it better, not because you want to be seen doing something"

[tomislavp4]

Pretty spot on, bjpower! I tottaly agree with you. If you can increase the performance by using green technologies than great, if not why bother? We are after all talking about the most advanced one of all motorsports. People watch it beacuse of the technology, speed, noise, appearance...Why mess that up?

[Chaparral]

Ciro thank you so much for the George Carlin piece hes certainly my favourite 'life commentator' god rest his soul - what this has to do with F1 aero excessive I havent a clue but then it is Christmas and we should bring cheer to the table no Global warming and cooling well its been happening for millions of years so that will not change - can we do something responsible - yes - reduce/restrict emissions via legislation (the industrial revolution has only been going for a century - not hard to turn around) - whilst many in the opposition sides of governments and greens canned what came from Copenhargen its the first stage of ongoing work in the emissions area - a work in progress - if we could only have the same approach to world poverty.................

Green is a misnomer it just equates to more efficient thats all

[xpensive]

As it was later found out, there was a natural xplanation for dying trees in the 80s, local draught, in Europe anyway.
Just like the dying seals in Skagerack was a natural virus, nothing environmentally mischevous at all.

But if I should try to stick to the topic for a little while, I agree with the above, there's already spec tyres, more or less complete engine equalization, if you add aero such we have us a spec formula like the IRL.

[Steven]

But if I should try to stick to the topic for a little while, I agree with the above, there's already spec tyres, more or less complete engine equalization, if you add aero such we have us a spec formula like the IRL.

Actually, when there's mention of changing the rules to enforce more green technology, I would think about reducing aerodynamic freedom and increasing mechanical freedom.

The whole point is that the focus needs to be changed. None of the fans want a spec series, and I don't think it will come to that in the next ten years. The rules should just be rewritten to push development in new areas and reduce the attractiveness of areas that have no chance of carrying outside of the sport.

[WhiteBlue]

But if I should try to stick to the topic for a little while, I agree with the above, there's already spec tyres, more or less complete engine equalization, if you add aero such we have us a spec formula like the IRL.

Actually, when there's mention of changing the rules to enforce more green technology, I would think about reducing aerodynamic freedom and increasing mechanical freedom.

The whole point is that the focus needs to be changed. None of the fans want a spec series, and I don't think it will come to that in the next ten years. The rules should just be rewritten to push development in new areas and reduce the attractiveness of areas that have no chance of carrying outside of the sport.

Very true. I have never said that fixed down force and fixed power curve or limited fuel energy rate should be added on top of all the other restrictions. In fact I have clearly said that they should replace other restrictions. Tomba and before him Richards simply state that F1 needs to shift the ways and means how it does things.

I have proposed before, that F1 should allow different types of engines, fuels, active and flexible aero devices, active suspensions, HERS and KERS and any other technology that contributes to efficiency and lower fuel consumption.

[meves]

I completely agree, and I don't think that limiting the fuel energy rate is the answer, just limit the total fuel energy from whatever fuel source is chosen that per race, as long as the fuel source is road production viable and allow more freedom in other areas which will mean that the focus can move from aero to other areas. Having KERS limited to only a small amount per lap was a mistake and limited the relevance of the system to the real world. Lets hope if changes do happen then they don't make those mistakes again.

[Scotracer]

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/stor ... MP=OTC-RSS

The last few weeks have brought that into sharp perspective with the withdrawal of BMW and Toyota from F1 and with question marks still remaining over Renault.....
I think it's very appropriate that Jean Todt has taken over the reins of F1 just at this turning point, because I don't think we can carry on the way we have in the past with the excesses we have seen in various fields. Probably one of the best examples is in aerodynamics, where we talk about relevance of motorsport technology and yet, today, I can't think of anything less relevant than aerodynamics to the general automotive industry. Sure, it has a minor part to play, but when one compares it to efficiencies in other areas such as the drive toward the electric vehicle and generative braking systems, I think motorsport has to take a very serious look at itself.

=D> =D> =D>

I cannot say it any better. For the last fifteen years aerodynamics have dominated F1 and have again done so this season.

Hmm, I didn't realise ground effect cars were only 15 years ago

[xpensive]

Yeah Scot, time flies, but the ground-effect cars made a great comeback this year thanks to MrM and the FIA, didn't they?

[bjpower]

I completely agree, and I don't think that limiting the fuel energy rate is the answer, just limit the total fuel energy from whatever fuel source is chosen that per race, as long as the fuel source is road production viable and allow more freedom in other areas which will mean that the focus can move from aero to other areas. Having KERS limited to only a small amount per lap was a mistake and limited the relevance of the system to the real world. Lets hope if changes do happen then they don't make those mistakes again.

trying not to sound like an ass.
i understand that f1 evolves allot faster than road cars, and it will be easyer for teams to justify the cost etc etc.
but why has F1 got to have any relevance to the real world when no other sport does?
i would like to know where this belief comes from.
to be honest i would love to see multiple different types of engines. v10,wankel, boxer whatever.

but this feeling that F1 must be anything else other than a sport i don't understand.
can anyone name another sport that needs this relevance.

but i dont think you can have breakthroughs by saying use this tech. you are better engineers than the prius lads you will make it better.

F1 makes breakthroughs when theres a gap in the regs. when you get that Disney moment of an engineer saying "theres no rule saying a pig cant drive the car"
or "we could use a computer to keep the suspension completely level"

anyway
why does F1 need to be real world relevant?

[WhiteBlue]

anyway
why does F1 need to be real world relevant?

Try to see it the other way round. Why not? The restrictions we place on F1 design are not strategically motivated but evolved over time and were often introduced to curb performance.

F1 is an FIA owned series and the series owner represents the motorists of this world. Why should F1 not be helping solving real world transportation problems instead of ever new and useless aero configurations.

Why don't we have active suspension with active ride height, active or flexible wings for minimum drag and other technologies that improve efficiency if they don't interfere with the spectacle?

[xpensive]

Just by looking at the xternal shape and build of an F1 car, one realizes that it has nothing to do with the real automotive world whatsoever, when the closest thing to an open-wheel monoposto car would be a Lotus Super Seven perhaps.

I xpect Ciro's wrath to come down on me like a ton of bricks any second now...

[bjpower]

anyway
why does F1 need to be real world relevant?

Try to see it the other way round. Why not? The restrictions we place on F1 design are not strategically motivated but evolved over time and were often introduced to curb performance.

F1 is an FIA owned series and the series owner represents the motorists of this world. Why should F1 not be helping solving real world transportation problems instead of ever new and useless aero configurations.

Why don't we have active suspension with active ride height, active or flexible wings for minimum drag and other technologies that improve efficiency if they don't interfere with the spectacle?

i understand your point of view. and if they enhance the spectacle im all for them.
but why is F1 forced to help solve real world transportation problems?
should it not be treated as any other sport?

Is the red bull air race forced to make more fuel efficient planes?
does soccer use environmentally friendly balls?

would flexable wings make a difference to my mini cooper, or the seat toledo i had before that?
would active suspension make a difference?

what is it about F1 that it seems to have lost the concept/image of it being a sport.
why are people not shouting at the rally teams - lets face it they are allot more related to road cars.

why should the f1 teams have to go to the expense of funding this green tech?

[WhiteBlue]

The answer is simple. F1 is the most high profile and published motor sport. That is why manufacturers have always come back and will come back. At this time it is simply not sufficiently in sync with the objectives of the motoring public. Why do you think the MP4-12C claims to be the most efficient super sports card to be available in 2011? Simply because people look for such qualities. Performance at ever increasing efficiency is the big issue for all things running on wheels.

[mx_tifoso]

Why do you think the MP4-12C claims to be the most efficient super sports card to be available in 2011? Simply because people look for such qualities. Performance at ever increasing efficiency is the big issue for all things running on wheels.

True, that's the main reason as to why becoming 'green' is so important to Formula One: the manufacturers presence.