Fernando Fernando!!!

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manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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I agree that they worked hard in a sense of development of the car but MS didn't have any similar opponents as Alosno did.

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Scuderia_Russ
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So are you saying that Schuey is no longer a match for Alonso and Kimi after arguably his most dominant year in the sport last year?! He'd still kill 'em in the same car imo!
"Whether you think you can or can't, either way you are right."
-Henry Ford-

manchild
manchild
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No, I’m saying that MS had superior car and no one to get close to him as much as other drivers including MS did get close to Alonso during this season. In most of the races Irvine or Barichello were on the second place so no one represented serious danger to MS.

This season we had Trulli, MS, Kimi, Monotya… battling with Alonso. The standings in drivers championship show that it was much tighter that in previous several seasons.

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Sorry. But I think my login has been inactive. I'm having trouble loggin in but my username is Sknguy.

Hmm... Just like any other good driver in a good car, I think that Michael Schumacher was very much the beneficiary of a very good team and a very good car. This is not to say that Schumacher is not one the Greatest drivers in history. MS could take a corner, or any part of any track for that matter, and run the same line perfectly a thousand times over. In other words MS was, and is, like a machine. He's very, very good technically. But on the creative end, MS has had his moments. For the most part, MS has problems when presented with challenges. For example Hill '94, Villeneuve '97, blah... blah... blah, and more recently Alonso @ San Marino '05 and Barrichello @ USGP '05 and Alonso again this past race.

Now, for Kimi Räikkönen and Fernando Alonso these are two very different drivers from Schumacher. Although Räikkönen shares the same "machine-like" qualities of Schumacher I'd give Alonso the nod as a better driver for his creative talent.

The Renaults were the fastest during the first three races of '05: Australia, Malaysia and Bahrain. Then San Marino proved that the Renaults were quite beatable with Michael Schumacher having the faster car in that race. So I actually think Alonso won the 2005 driver's championship with a slower, though more nimble, car. Once reliability was resolved, the McLarens really showed their form. With four races down, Räikkönen won his first race in '05 at Barcelona and had plenty of time, with fourteen races to go, to win the world championship.

Just as a side note reminder: De La Rosa finish 5th at the Bahrain race this year and Alexander Wurx was third at San Marino, both replacing an injured Montoya. Granted De La Rosa and Wurz are no rookies, but they were friday drivers contending for podium finishes. I honestly think that the McLarens were leagues ahead of anyone in terms of speed in '05.

Japan really showed us the difference between Alonso and Räikkönen though. Where Alonso was quick to take advantage of an opportunity Räikkönen was having more difficulty. Creativity, coupled with confidence, opens up a range of opportunities for passing. Both of Alonso's passes of Schumacher were prime examples of his creativity. On Alonso's second pass, going into the chicane, he fiented going inside on Schumacher which caused MS to attempt a "late braking" defensive move. Alonso kept his momentum while MS, by locking his brakes, lost his momentum coming onto the straight. Beautiful. Just as the 130R pass was beautifl too.

Räikkönen, on the other hand, had trouble with Schumacher. But Räikkönen was relying on the long straight for passing. Hence the short seventh gear problem. It probably was a problem in comparison to what the Ferrari's gearing was. But if that were such an important problem why did the Fisichella pass seem so effortless? Granted Fisichella conceded a loss of momentum through the chicane. But really Fisichella was being far too cautious by holding the inside line at that chicane. The Casino Triangle chicane really is not a passing opportunity, not after 130R. And even if someone managed a pass there they would probably have been retaken because of loss of momentum from taking the inside line.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

Hudsonhawk
Hudsonhawk
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Manchild,

I am not asking Alonso to blow his engine. I fail to see where you have sourced this from ? I am saying that he knew he only had to be conservative and strove to finish in 3rd place in his last few races to become WC. This to me this is a sign of a "weak" champion. I used to watch F1 because I liked racing......its not racing now.....its a pre determined event still. When have you ever known a champion to go out and strive for 3rd place.
It took much more effort from Alonso to win this title than any MS titles won in Ferrari.
This I don't dispute, but I fail to see why we are drawing MS into this. We know MS's titles are a farce so lets move on. Alonso's title win is miles ahead of the MS saga's. Lets not start with this clown again please.
I agree that less racing in less safe car = grater effort and stronger champion but you can’t blame champions from succeeding eras that they are weak simply because technology enabled more safety and less effort.
Agreed, but this has got nothing to do with strolling over the line for a 3rd position to ensure a title. Whilst I still believe to an extent that Kimi maybe a smoke screen for Ferrari to nab Alonso, it may also be plausible that this is why Alonso has been overlooked and Kimi preferred. Kimi could be perceived as a person who strives to finish in 1st place regardless if it costs him the Championship......(e.g - as when he pressed on with the flat spotted tire ) - I don't know - just shooting ideas......but you have to ask yourself.....why is Ferrari chasing Kimi over Alonso ???? Is it that Kimi's desperate season has given him a perception of "fast", where Alonso has just waited for everyone else to fall over around him???

Jaslfc,

I'm starting to accept your posts a little more these days but ....
hey I know u hate ferrari and shumacher but pls. u have to admit that they worked hard to win the titles.. it was the other teams that didnt match ferraris pace in 2002 and 2004. but the other years the worked hard for the titles.
proves you are still blinded by MS crap.....if this year hasn't proved that MS's titles was all car and dollars and F-All to do with MS than perhaps you can explain why he hasn't performed this year???? Where are his super dooper driving powers ????

Manchild......come to think of it did MS ever stroll into 3rd place so he could win his titles ????.....Actually no......he had a fast car and if held up he wouldn't overtake.....he would use a spit (pit) strategy to overtake......that's right.....he robbed me of my "racing rights" too......BOOOOHOOOO to me :)

Anyway, my only point is that well before claiming his title he was racing to get 3rd place...why not 1st.....His driving at Japan was fantastic.....WHAT I AM SAYING, is that his exhibition in Japan is proof that he drove previous races well outside him capabilities because he needed 3rd only....

You see his driving in Japan as a selfless act, saying he did it for the team over taking on the grass etc etc !! ....well why didn't he drive like that when his own title was on the line ??? Hmmmm....maybe he had too much to loose and maybe he isn't as cool as some suggested ??? As soon as the pressure is off he is 4 wheel driving and skiing on grass ?!?!?.....Come on Manchild....

This is why I love Motogp and Rossi......October 2004 Rossi could have settled for Second at Phillip island to claim the WC......but he put the WC on hold to cross the line in 1st place on the last lap and win in style....STUPID some may say because if it went the other way it would have cost him....but it didn't and this has made him bigger....and stronger....and a great WC.....and that's the diff between Alonso and a champion.....???? I see no one like Rossi in F1.....1st place ...1st place ..... 1st place....is all that matter to Rossi on any given weekend !!! F1 just isn't the same.....why ???..... because there is too much money at stake and racing is the sacrificial lamb![/quote]

Hudsonhawk
Hudsonhawk
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Sknguy

Great post......but
MS could take a corner, or any part of any track for that matter, and run the same line perfectly a thousand times over
how can this comment be supported or is it a generalisation ?
Japan really showed us the difference between Alonso and Räikkönen though. Where Alonso was quick to take advantage of an opportunity Räikkönen was having more difficulty. Creativity, coupled with confidence, opens up a range of opportunities for passing. Both of Alonso's passes of Schumacher were prime examples of his creativity. On Alonso's second pass, going into the chicane, he fiented going inside on Schumacher which caused MS to attempt a "late braking" defensive move. Alonso kept his momentum while MS, by locking his brakes, lost his momentum coming onto the straight. Beautiful. Just as the 130R pass was beautifl too.
Why hasnt Alonso demostrated this aggression all year ??? And in answering this question you may contradict your view on the difference between alonso and kimi and in doing so, may negate everything you have said :?:

No offence intended.......thanks bro

manchild
manchild
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Regarding Alonso's point picking in the second part of the season... I don't think that Renault was faster and able to overtake Mclaren at those races - they knew that - Alonso knew that. Pushing car that isn't faster over its limits and knowing that it can get you sympathy for a year but no points would be irresponsible to both driver’s career and team’s standings. No one will remember Kimi’s “do or die” from 2005 in a couple of years but champion will remain remembered.

One of Fangio’s main advantages is said to be his good treatment of the engine which obviously means that during his era there were also some ”Kimis” who had spectacular drives but no score… Who were they?

MS never had to be second because he had the superior car all the time, even compared to his teammate's car and that is something Alonso didn't have. He managed to win championship even though he drove slower car during second half of the season. He made an achievement despite having slower car – that is not mediocrity. Don’t take Alonso’s teammate out of the focus. Not in a single race of a season did Fisichella matched Alosnos’s efforts and performance and that should at least partly confirm that Alonso took maximum of R25 without risking to DNF trying to catch car that couldn’t be caught.

Isn’t that the point of racing – taking maximum of the car while finishing the races? I think that Alonso is more complete and balanced driver than Kimi who is very fast but allows to be blinded by temporary emotions and goals without seeing the big picture.

If Kimi won in 2005 wouldn’t his 4 out of 7 wins due to Alonso’s problems make him “weak” champion too?

Why is Ferrari over Kimi and not Alonso? They probably think that their reliability can withstand Kimi’s ruthless engine treatment…

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Steven
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Hudsonhawk wrote:Why hasnt Alonso demostrated this aggression all year :?:
There was no need to take a lot of risks in the last races before coming world champion. Both drivers are now on equal feet and fight for their team. Here I must support sknguy as Alonso also convinced me more with his overtaking. Raikkonen had a lot more trouble with several drivers.

After one lap both drivers were seperated with 2 cars between them, so a better start from Alonso. Furthermore after passing Klien, Alonso was 10 seconds ahead of Kimi, not a bad indicator either.

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f1.redbaron
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manchild wrote: Why is Ferrari over Kimi and not Alonso? They probably think that their reliability can withstand Kimi’s ruthless engine treatment…
Off topic, there is a new rumor that Alonso was offered $20 million to drive for Toyota.

sknguy-
sknguy-
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Thanks for your reply Hudsonhawk.

I suppose you could say my comments about Michael Schumacher were a genralization, but they were made through my observation of his performace. I've only recently begun watching F1 again after being out of touch the previous decade. I've begun watching again from 2001 to be exact. So I'm not as familiar with Schumacher's habits prior to that season as I am with his more recent championships. After my watching his consistent performance time and time again I grudgingly admit that he will be known as one of the greatest drivers in Formula One history. But the things that stick in my head about his driving style are his consistency, reliability and, unfortunately, predictability.

As for your second comment about why Alonso wasn't more aggressive earlier in the season? I don't quite understand your rationale of how any explanation would negate my supposition. (scratch head) lol.
It's pretty difficult picking up on a team's strategies, being an arm chair driver, but... hear goes:

All season Alonso had been following the team's strategy. When the pits asked him to turn down the fuel mix and conserve fuel, he did. When they asked him to pick it up, like at the Nürburgring in '05, he did. He even asked the pits for permission to pass Fisichella when he radioed "I am faster". So Alonso spent the season executing the team's strategy and not doing things without permission. So, with the driver's title sewn up and nothing else to lose the pits let him loose. Just prior to the Japanese Grand Prix Alonso stated that he would be more aggressive. I think this was an indication that Briatore and Simonds agreed with his being more aggressive.

Renault had a strategic plan for 2005. I believe that it was to have a reliable car, because they probably knew they had a decent performing car already. At one of the post-race press conferences earlier in the season Alonso stated that they hadn't gotten everything out of the car yet. I don't have any insider info on the Renault team but my guess is that Alonso was telling the truth. But the team chose not to push the car's performace. Unlike other teams, including McLaren, which were forced to play catch-up and maybe they were taking more risks. Alonso only did his part to execute Renault's game plan. Thus, with the driver's championship off the way they let-loose-the-lion. Personaly, I'm expecting China to be another mad dash.

As a final note on Hudsonhawk's comment "why is Ferrari chasing Kimi over Alonso ????". Only Ferrari know their reasons. But if I were to guess it would likely havr something to do with the way they execute their game plan, their stragtegy. Kimi's driving style probably fits right into the kind of strategy they like to execute. And I agree that the Ice Man is indeed fast. So there's extra incentiveto get Kimi. And, there's a good chance he'll win the driver's title in the future. But in the end, I'm sure Ferrari would not be disinterested in Alonso. It could all just as easily depend on how the planets align for that matter.

Chow.

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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I love bench racing, it brings about interesting conversation. :wink:
As someone who has done a fair share of online oval racing, there are many times I have run across another racer, who although one or more laps down, races me as if we were racing for the win. Many times, it causes a lot of problems, and it's a good day if I managed to get a clean pass without losing too much time. I have a personal name for racers like that, and its "stupid". Racing is much more than just going out and running as hard as you can, as long as you can (Sato?). There's a lot more.. tire conservation, pit strategy, situational awareness, a whole lot of disciplines that can fall under the "racecraft" umbrella. That's why in F1, there are many test and Friday drivers who can cut darn quick laps, yet aren't considered ready or worthy of racing. Sometimes it's sponsorship issues, but most of the time, the driver is considered as lacking in the ability to bring the car home with maximum points. So what's my point? That drivers are all different, and to race successfully, you have to be smart, and use valid strategy. And we all know who had this year's best strategy, the people from Renault. It was a team that gave Alonso the chance to be champion, and he used their strategy to his advantage. McLaren had a different strategy, and it cost them. The first half of the season was pissed away by Mclaren, and that really hurt Kimi's chances.
Meanwhile, Renault, and especially Alonso got every bit of points they were capable of, despite the fact they posessed the second quickest car on the grid. Make no mistake, this year's Mclaren is a supercar, easily dominant over all the rest.
There have been expressed opinions that Alonso should have raced balls-out from the first race, saving nothing, risking more. But he didn't. He drove a very calculated and disclipined season, and it finally delivered him the title, what is what the game is all about. Personally, I'm very impressed by Alonso and the team strategy, it was almost flawless.
Twenty years from now, historians will remember him as the champ, and they will also recall his pass at 130R. Also will be remembered Kimi's suspension failing on the last lap at Germany. But no one will recall Alonso colliding with a fellow competitor and finishing second in the title, as (cough cough) some others have done. History remembers exciting moments, titles won, and driver errors. Alonso didn't make those kinds of errors. Instead, he remained disclipined, and ran his race, which netted him the title. A good car, fantastic strategy, incredible disclipine, and sticking to the game plan was what got Alonso the title.
It appears Kimi will finish second, despite probably winning more races. This will fuel a controversy for many years in the future, and it should. Personally, if you want to get emotional, and even maybe mad, at what appears a misjustice, look at the points system, especially the gap between second and winning. I don't like it, it rewards consistency and does not place enough emphasis on winning. I did some number crunching based on the old 10-6-4-3-2-1 system, and if it was in place, we would be enjoying a situation where Alonso has 95 points against Kimi's 93.

But in the end, everyone knew the points system at the beginning of the season, and just like designing a car, you use every available rule to your advantage. Hail Fernando Alonso, you won the title. You did good.

Hudsonhawk
Hudsonhawk
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Okay.....Clearly we can go back a forth all month long on this.

I'd say that some of us are biased towards Alonso and need to glorify their new champion.....and the flip side is a man who doesn't like the changing world of F1 and its business orientated "racecraft".

I CANT RESIST.....I have issues.....

sorry Dave but
There's a lot more.. tire conservation, pit strategy, situational awareness,
You must sit there with a stop watch and time the pit stopssss.... :oops: .....Bud, I don't see anyone talking about the fantastic pit stops from teams...well at least not climaxing over the fuel nozzle being inserted into the petrol tank......I see everyone pumped over the "super dooper R130 pass"......you know why they harped on about this R130 pass......because that was EXCITING and it was RACING and RACING used to be the core business of F1.....not $$$$$.
Sometimes it's sponsorship issues
As much as this will hurt you and probably cause me a backlash from some (all)......You mean to say "all the time its sponsorship issues". Rossi himself pretty much stated that anyone can drive F1, but they don't have the sponsorship/dollars to get the seat.....I think Rossi himself said he can get the seat because of who he is and because of what he has achieved but still acknowledges that others are just as capable as him....modesty or honesty....a bit of both I think ???? OH and the obvious fact that there is much money to be made from this specific Italian in a Ferrari !!!. Sure skill is required but not to the extent that you may think.....keep painting your complex generalized picture of "you have to be a super dooper driver to race F1"....Cause the facts point to a no you don't in 2005 !!

What frustrates me is that there is no parity in this sport so how can anyone compare drivers, stating one has more ability than the other !! Sure compare team mates but don't forget that some team mates are favoured and some have just arrived to teams !!

Anyway......I cant spend all my life here......would love to dribble on but I'm making a mess.....I still love you guys....well a couple anyway.

Oh ..... hang on..... Sknguy,
But the team chose not to push the car's performance.
and
Alonso only did his part to execute Renault's game plan. Thus, with the driver's championship off the way they let-loose-the-lion.
These quoted comments you make above is what will negate the quoted comment below.
Japan really showed us the difference between Alonso and Räikkönen though. Where Alonso was quick to take advantage of an opportunity Räikkönen was having more difficulty. Creativity, coupled with confidence, opens up a range of opportunities for passing. Both of Alonso's passes of Schumacher were prime examples of his creativity. On Alonso's second pass, going into the chicane, he fiented going inside on Schumacher which caused MS to attempt a "late braking" defensive move. Alonso kept his momentum while MS, by locking his brakes, lost his momentum coming onto the straight. Beautiful. Just as the 130R pass was beautifl too
You saw no difference between Kimi and Alonso. You contradicted yourself. I disagree with your line on the "armchair driving".....try turning off the commentary and look and understand what it is your eyes are seeing and not what is being fed to your ears which in turn is cannibalistic deception on your eyes. (wow that hurt my brain). KIMI COULDN'T AFFORD TO CRASH OUT and surely would have been under instructions not to take a major risk. He had more to play for than Alonso. Alonso had a team mate coming 1ST, they already won the major title of WC and Alonso had a point to prove to his critics.....Kimi had Montoya out. It was 2 cars VS 1 and it could have been 2 VS 0 if he and shoie crashed....notice he didn't hesitate too long when he got to the fish !?!? There is the constructors title bud......ALL YOU SAW WAS WHAT YOU HEARD THE COMMENTATOR SAY. Don't forget, his job is to sell this sport to you and sell you the new world champ!!

Once again I don't mean my post to sound aggressive towards you SKN.....I'm just in a rush.....peace and thanks for the reply......

GuestAgain
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manchild wrote:
If Kimi won in 2005 wouldn’t his 4 out of 7 wins due to Alonso’s problems make him “weak” champion too?
Which 4 of his wins were due to Alonso's problems?

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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Monaco, Canada, Hungaroring and Japan

It is often said that Alonso won 3 out of 6 races because of Kimi's problems so those 4 are races where Alonso had problems

Monaco - tyres
Canada - DNF
Hungaroring – crash
Japan - penalty

I agree that both of them profited on some races and won on pure luck and all I'd like to hear it exactly that - both of them were sometimes lucky and sometimes unlucky (Kimi 4 times and Alonso 3 times).

It is the cries only over Kimi's bad luck saying that only Alonso was lucky that irritate me. Until the Japan they have profited from each other’s problems 50-50 (3 races each).

...
Anyway, I see no point in creating a confrontation between those two drivers and their fans. They both drove honestly whole season, without any suspicious moves on each other and I really have nothing against Kimi.

sknguy-
sknguy-
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Sorry Hudsonhawk, my "scratch head" comment was only intended to accent my confusion. I still don't see the rationale.

There are a lot of differences between Räikkönen and Alonso. Different personalities, different driving styles. Which plays into why a team like Ferrari would be interested in one over another.

Also, If I did turn the volume off on my TV I wouldn't have access to the politics, which are important indicators of a team's intentions and stratrgies. Besides, the politics are too damn interesting.

Gotta run.