Toyota Recall

[BreezyRacer]

While we car literates might say "suck it up" you old Toyota owners, you have to remember that this issue hasn't been a mere inconvenience and it didn't happen just yesterday ..

This issue has cost the lives of over 50 people here in the US and at least 1 person has spent 5 years in prison. The guy in prison was convicted of manslaughter when his Toyota throttled into a crowd on a street. The poor guy swore all along that the throttle stuck and the brakes wouldn't slow the car but it was assumed that couldn't happen. His whole family was in the car at the time. Really sad ..

but as our resident Toyota employee and defender has pointed out, at least now Toyota's sales are recovering, so problem fixed!

[RacingManiac]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/11/opini ... ef=opinion

Just because they think they are on the brake does not mean they are. I think one thing that adds to this argument is that unlike a non-vacuum-assisted brake on a race car, the road car brake and throttle has very similar travel and resistance. You'll be hard pressed to move a assist-free brake by a significant amount, thus you are less likely to confuse one from another. But thats not the case for road cars...

Another thing I think worth considering, automobile engineering is a long winded process, I've worked in company that makes reclining seat(for internship) and now work in a suspension components company, every part goes through years and millions of cycle of test and validation. Especially something as fundamental as having a braking system capable of over powering the engine. Compare that design and validation process to the level of testing required to be licensed to drive, I'd be more inclined to believe 95% of the time the driver has a bigger role to play in an accident than their cars.....

[autogyro]

Sorry breezy but I think you will find that such fatalities and accidents are not just confined to Toyota vehicles and that many other manufacturers have an equal if not far worse record.
Many accidents relating to mechanical failures could be easily dealt with if people learnt to drive vehicles better and more attention was paid to teaching them how vehicles work and what to do in emergencies. There seems to be a total lack of such skills in most modern drivers. I find the modern attitude to vehicles as much the same as the current PC societies attitude to life in general.
It thinks that everything and everyone else owes it a living without problems and if any occur it cannot be their fault, god forbid.

[BreezyRacer]

Sorry breezy but I think you will find that such fatalities and accidents are not just confined to Toyota vehicles and that many other manufacturers have an equal if not far worse record.
Many accidents relating to mechanical failures could be easily dealt with if people learnt to drive vehicles better and more attention was paid to teaching them how vehicles work and what to do in emergencies. There seems to be a total lack of such skills in most modern drivers. I find the modern attitude to vehicles as much the same as the current PC societies attitude to life in general.
It thinks that everything and everyone else owes it a living without problems and if any occur it cannot be their fault, god forbid.

Hey autogyro, I totally agree with you. However, the throttle problem is not a driver error issue, though it definitely appears that the Prius case from last week was a scam by some lowlife, and an idiot at that. Priuses weren't even involved in that issue.

The throttle issue reared it's head directly when Toyota switched to a fly by wire throttle system. I think that was in 2004. Anymore, that's hardly unique in car design but it was when they developed it. These reports have been coming thru since the year they were introduced. Almost any other mfr has a built in failsafe for fly by wire where if the system gets conflicting inputs it disregards the throttle inputs. Just makes sense from an engineering standpoint. Toyota never thought much about these reports and they solved the safety issue by lobbying congress rather than thinking "hey there might be an issue here, let's put some failsafe into the system like everyone else does".

Of course this issue really came to the fore last fall when a new Lexus SUV ran wide open for miles with an off duty state trooper at the wheel. They called for help on cell phones and the trooper did everything he could but in the end it was a steaming heap in a field where the 4 occupants died. Toyota claimed it was floor mats that did this and set out to changing floor mats because they really couldn't come up with anything else.

Despite the fact that these issues had been getting reported since 2004, Toyota had no clue. No clue because it was easier/cheaper to pay off some lawyers in DC than to even think there could be a real problem here.

So I leave it to you, is it just driver error behind these things???? I certainly don't think so, and it sure ain't floor mats and I highly doubt it's a throttle pedal. There have many more reports in cars that have since been "fixed". Fortunately none of them wound up in a smoldering heap .. yet. But it's likely to occur again. When it does all the PR and lobbyist money in world won't be enough to save the Toyota reputation.

[Shrek]

Sorry breezy but I think you will find that such fatalities and accidents are not just confined to Toyota vehicles and that many other manufacturers have an equal if not far worse record.
Many accidents relating to mechanical failures could be easily dealt with if people learnt to drive vehicles better and more attention was paid to teaching them how vehicles work and what to do in emergencies. There seems to be a total lack of such skills in most modern drivers. I find the modern attitude to vehicles as much the same as the current PC societies attitude to life in general.
It thinks that everything and everyone else owes it a living without problems and if any occur it cannot be their fault, god forbid.

Yes but Toyota knew about this 6 years ago and pretended like it never existed and blamed the drivers, that's what really ticks me off

[Giblet]

Toyota accelerator recall (18 deaths).

Ford exploding Pinto (27 deaths) It was denied for ages.

Firestone tire fiasco (101 deaths) It was denied for ages.

Chevy side mounted exploding fuel tanks in pickups (725 deaths). It was, denied, for, ages.

We're talking about people being burned alive in car accidents here. Let's not lose our perspective. my father has Camry, has been recalled, and fixed.

Corporations do these kinds of things constantly, and we suffer constantly.

[Shrek]

Giblet, there also has been talks about the recalls not working too

[Giblet]

I wasn't aware of that, I haven't been following the lynch mob for Toyota, as it always seems over the top. My dad luckily knows where neutral is.

But my main point is that lambasting a company, that has thousands hard working people on the line, in the offices, and everywhere, is governed by a tiny board of directors who's interests are stock holders as the primary, seems unfair.

Many of my good friends and their families work here at the Toyota plant in Cambridge Ontario, and trust me, they want nothing more than this issue to go away obviously. But they want it to be fixed to go away.

Consumers demand too much these days. Cars are becoming more complicated, and no company should be trusted to make something so complex.

The Cessna 172 that my father flys, had it's airframe certified in the 50's. They are still solid and useful today, with little change other than instrumentation and engine. Certification is wonderful thing, but it costs money.

I wish the regulations were as strong, other than crash tests, for the millions of cars that are on the road as they are in aircraft. Why should a company be trusted to not make a mistake?

Agh. I don't know what to think, but so far so good, I can still put my personal stock in any Honda that I choose to drive.

[BreezyRacer]

Toyota accelerator recall (18 deaths).

Here's a source that disputes your count of 18 deaths ..
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/ca ... call-Fix/
a quote from the article ..
"The government has now tied 52 deaths -- an increase from the previous 34 -- to Toyota’s unintended acceleration problem. As part of its solution to the problem, Toyota is outfitting recalled models with an override system and plans to equip all new models sold in the U.S. with the system by 2011."

If you want to read some more here's a rundown on the whole issue with articles as a timeline ..
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/ca ... ta-Recall/

[autogyro]

Thanks for the links Breezy and thanks for not raising to the bait. Even if you actualy do work for GM your debating skills remain intact.
There does seem to be a problem with the hybrid Prius, which is causing more problems than a conventional car technical problem.
It is to be expected that there will be similar problems as more hybrid and electric vehicle come into production with technology unusual to the vehicle buyer as well as to the manufacturers.
Of course such problems must be dealt with.
However I also believe it to be essential that countries restructure education in driving skills and tests to take this 'revolution' into account.
I have found it soul destroying trying to explain how such alternative vehicle systems work and why the driving techniques used need to be adapted to suit.

[Giblet]

Toyota accelerator recall (18 deaths).

Here's a source that disputes your count of 18 deaths ..
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/ca ... call-Fix/
a quote from the article ..
"The government has now tied 52 deaths -- an increase from the previous 34 -- to Toyota’s unintended acceleration problem. As part of its solution to the problem, Toyota is outfitting recalled models with an override system and plans to equip all new models sold in the U.S. with the system by 2011."

If you want to read some more here's a rundown on the whole issue with articles as a timeline ..
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/ca ... ta-Recall/

Sorry I just used google, and didn't look very hard. You/the article are probably correct.

Still that number pales in comparison to some other ones I posted. The American companies have killed more due to negligent design practices, as opposed to 'an honest mistake'. If it wasn't for Japanese car companies in overall quality, and other companies like Volvo that used safety as a selling point, more would have likely died as well. Thats the thing about playing catchup, you are always behind. By leading, Toyota has dug a hole.

None of these companies are saints.

[Shrek]

here's a thread all about it on NASCAR.com if anyone wants a look

http://community.nascar.com/go/thread/v ... 10...?pg=1

[BreezyRacer]

Thanks for the links Breezy and thanks for not raising to the bait. Even if you actualy do work for GM your debating skills remain intact.
There does seem to be a problem with the hybrid Prius, which is causing more problems than a conventional car technical problem.
It is to be expected that there will be similar problems as more hybrid and electric vehicle come into production with technology unusual to the vehicle buyer as well as to the manufacturers.
Of course such problems must be dealt with.
However I also believe it to be essential that countries restructure education in driving skills and tests to take this 'revolution' into account.
I have found it soul destroying trying to explain how such alternative vehicle systems work and why the driving techniques used need to be adapted to suit.

Just to set things straight I don't work for or with any car company. I don't have a dog in this fight really. But what Toyota claims to be and what Toyota actually is appears to be two different things. What really irks me is how many years Toyota have ignored this issue by just spending money in Washington so they could kick the can down the road. Did anyone not think of the implications????

[autogyro]

Thanks for the links Breezy and thanks for not raising to the bait. Even if you actualy do work for GM your debating skills remain intact.
There does seem to be a problem with the hybrid Prius, which is causing more problems than a conventional car technical problem.
It is to be expected that there will be similar problems as more hybrid and electric vehicle come into production with technology unusual to the vehicle buyer as well as to the manufacturers.
Of course such problems must be dealt with.
However I also believe it to be essential that countries restructure education in driving skills and tests to take this 'revolution' into account.
I have found it soul destroying trying to explain how such alternative vehicle systems work and why the driving techniques used need to be adapted to suit.

Just to set things straight I don't work for or with any car company. I don't have a dog in this fight really. But what Toyota claims to be and what Toyota actually is appears to be two different things. What really irks me is how many years Toyota have ignored this issue by just spending money in Washington so they could kick the can down the road. Did anyone not think of the implications????

I have to go with Giblet on that one Breezy. All the car manufacturers have the same attitude to Toyota in this regard. Those that do not will not stay in business long. Looks like the jury is still out on whether the American car industries are on a witch hunt against Toyota.

[flynfrog]

Thanks for the links Breezy and thanks for not raising to the bait. Even if you actualy do work for GM your debating skills remain intact.
There does seem to be a problem with the hybrid Prius, which is causing more problems than a conventional car technical problem.
It is to be expected that there will be similar problems as more hybrid and electric vehicle come into production with technology unusual to the vehicle buyer as well as to the manufacturers.
Of course such problems must be dealt with.
However I also believe it to be essential that countries restructure education in driving skills and tests to take this 'revolution' into account.
I have found it soul destroying trying to explain how such alternative vehicle systems work and why the driving techniques used need to be adapted to suit.

Just to set things straight I don't work for or with any car company. I don't have a dog in this fight really. But what Toyota claims to be and what Toyota actually is appears to be two different things. What really irks me is how many years Toyota have ignored this issue by just spending money in Washington so they could kick the can down the road. Did anyone not think of the implications????

I have to go with Giblet on that one Breezy. All the car manufacturers have the same attitude to Toyota in this regard. Those that do not will not stay in business long. Looks like the jury is still out on whether the American car industries are on a witch hunt against Toyota.

My mostly unfounded and unprovable idea is that it has more to do with the union moneys being in charge of congress right now. Toyota refuses to use union labor and that is probably why they are still in business and didn't take a bailout from govt. But I think that is why congress is on a witch hunt right now.