Mercedes GP MGP W01

[marcush.]

I don't claim to know everything but I know a lot more than almost everyone, and if I don't know it, I can usually work it out pretty quickly.
It's not just this that makes someone a suitable candidate as an F1 engineer, it an ability to be very useful and applicable and sort problems quickly and efficiently. There are very theoretical/academic people that would be totally useless in the industry as they simply don't see projects through.

A lot of you are very envious, which is always the case with secret/prestigious things, always looking to knock people down.

I am they way I am because I deal with far cleverer idiots than most of you everyday and haven't got the patience to teach things. I have yet to see any decent technical basis to an argument. I posted 2 2D single element CFD result images on a McLaren thread of which there was not one reference to it. People wish to simply talk about things and give their views based on absolutely nothing, rather than try and interprit results.

Do you think because a couple of you say the nose looks "draggy", it actually is? Why does it look draggy? What do you think the effects are down-stream? If it were as simple as that, we wouldn't need wind-tunnels or CFD.

I don't think anyone has mentioned pitch/yaw sensitivity or the balance shift with speed and attitude. These are more important than the raw downforce level.
The phrase "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" springs to mind.

I'm not going to post anymore as it's getting very dull.

oops!... I don´t quite get your point there mate.
The nosecone shape as a main reason for merc to not perform ..I agree with you it is a different approach but if it were a drawback it would not be on the car.
a decent technical basis for a discussion what is this 5 years race engineer to Mr.Schumacher at Ferrari? I´m not convinced a degree in mechanical engineering would be of much help in setting up Michael Schumachers car or would you say so?
being in it you learn the ropes ,ok ,but surely you also focus on things that do not perform the trick.How else could you explain that a mega monster car (button s words )turns into average material within weeks? it is as simple as that:the physics behind the performance are not perfectly understood .The car is the same within minor deviations ,but the team is unable to put it into the operating window for whatever reason.
so to state you know it all or at least can figure out everything with a snap of your fingers is quite a statement.
I for myself have never put a finger on current F1 machinery but I worked on problems and problem solving so your statements are matching my approach to those challenges I usually deal with .I would never assume to sit at home or in front of the tv and be able to get the whole picture of whats going on ..you got the datastreams the feedback from the drivers ,of course you know better what is going on and what is not .we have if we are lucky a set of laptimes and some speed figures..and a few pics of the car ...that is about 1%of information compared to what you have.no wonder we are talking nose shapes ,tyre pressures and weight distribution....and not yaw sensivity .

put some milk on the table and people can make up their minds then you can come back and say we are dumb idiots.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Marcush

+1

[ringo]

F1??

No real F1 engineer will have F1 eng as a username; that's just seeking too much attention and somewhat arrogant.
His wing profiles in the Mclaren thread were also very very simple; nothing to glean from. I'd say he is an aspiring engineering student or intern, who hopes to become an F1 engineer. He hasn't demonstrated anything substantial at all to show otherwise, and he chooses not to.

Chances are I could be Adrian Newey........... I think I'll change my user name to Adrian Newey, why not?

back on topic,

I take horses point that no one can quantify ,numerically, down-force at a glance, but you can compare general shapes to other cars and you can have a basic understanding how these shapes interact with the wind and other shapes; with a little experience and trial and error.

The Mercedes nose has more drag than the others. The shape alone dictates this. I can demonstrate it as well. It's not all what's wrong with the car though.
We have 3 days left till this picture gets a little clearer.

[Giblet]

I invite you to look at some of f1_eng's other posts. The guy truly knows his stuff, and has been involved in some very deep discussions, way over my head, and over the heads of most if not all here.

There is no reason someone wouldn't us a name as F1_eng, if they are an engineer in F1. Why not?

Sounds like sour grapes from some people, and I don't know why. Pick his brain.

[ringo]

Typical stuff to me i guess, at least I hope it's not over the heads of all on this forum.
This is F1 technical after all.

No disrespect to F1 Eng but I got a hunch he is just a well rounded engineering student... probably laughing his ass off that he had some posters fooled.

[Pierce89]

JohnsonsEvilTwin, why would anyone choose any part with more drag unless it gives a load more downforce?

You honestly don't have any idea what you're on about. A high nose like other teams can be analysed in a few minutes in the wind-tunnel so if it was better, it would have been implemented.
What is people's obsession with the nose design?

Why do you suggest the Merc nose creates more drag?
How about the McLaren front? What about the area under their nose that tries to replicate the effect of the Merc nose?

F1 ENG

Thanks for the understanding you demonstrated in your post.

I was being sarcastic F1 ENG,

But of course, I will blow your little bubble down. How is it that the Mercedes W01 has the same top speed as that of the RB6 yet has a more powerful engine?

Additionally how is it that the RB6 has massive levels of downforce compared to the W01?

Drag does not equal downforce! You saying I dont have a clue what Im on about is testament to you not having the slightest inkling of aero.
It boilds down to efficiency. I wont bore you with math, but the first thing about getting downforce at speed is to try get it with as low a drag profile as POSSIBLE.

Can you tell me what works on the W01's nose? It appears to have a drag profile that isnt doing anything to help with the bakance of the car. I was discussing this with Marcush until you decided to lambast me, and I was bouncing an idea/opinion/thought.

Thanks for nothing

The reason Red Bull is same top speed with less power and more downforce is because the car is much more aero efficient overall. Merc would not use a nose withhigher drag if it didn't make more downforce. F1 Eng might be full of it but he's right about that.

[F1_eng]

I can't raise the level of discussion because for whatever reason, It always seems to get pulled down to mindless, unsupported oppinions.

And do you really think I was going to post rear wing profiles on here for all to see? The profiles I used were more than enough to show the characteristic behaviour being discussed.

I'm done here.

[marcush.]

I can't raise the level of discussion because for whatever reason, It always seems to get pulled down to mindless, unsupported oppinions.

And do you really think I was going to post rear wing profiles on here for all to see? The profiles I used were more than enough to show the characteristic behaviour being discussed.

I'm done here.

you keep ignoring the fact that you claim to hold the facts in hand but refuse to share but moan that those who do not have the facts try to figure out whats going on based on minute evidence and opinion.

I don´t know if and how much Brawn has shifted the weight distribution from 2009 ,but they admitted already to that they got this wrong .there is not much substance to it one could figure they have moved but not enough ,or they have moved as much as they could but not enough ,based on their false assumptions they build the car too short which is preventing them to move the bias as needed and and and..
we have not even evidence if the fronts are running hot or cold.But wait if it were cold we would have seen them weaving on the straights.Temperature increase 1°C per weave...

[JohnsonEvilTwin]

I could never say for sure that the MGP001 nose was the issue. But Im looking the bits of information I have as well as my limited knowledge.

Firstly there is a balance problem, we are sure of this.
Secondly, in comparison with its rivals, The MGP001 nose looks "huge". Jonathan Legard(scrapping the barrell I know) also made mention in Bahrain that the Merceds looked "Massive" from the front in comparison. Aesthetics, sure, but if it looks a brick......
Thirdly the car understeers badly, somthing Schumacher is evidntly not impressed with.

While im fully aware the suspension geometery, camber, contact patches and weight distribution have more to do with this, I would like to understand what relationship the nose has in all of this. The nose is giving downforce for sure, but at what cost to drag?

As i said before there is no direct drag/downforce equation. Aero efficiency kind of sees to that. Or am I wrong? 1cm raised panel giving you 1kg downforce on one car, will not necessarily do that on another car with a different 1cm raised panel if its more efficient right?

[hollus]

F1eng:

Please contribute all you can, do not contribute what you don't want, refute other people points... but this is supposed to be about technical discussions (nobody cuts access to non engineers like me). It is not a competition of egos or a contest of how many times you proved other people wrong.
I do remember the 2D CFD profiles in the Macca thread. I also remember nobody explicitely citing them, and I also remember the discussion USING them for about two pages. I know I did like them, and I also know that I tried to extract as much info as I could from them and I also questioned their validity in my head, they were 2D after all, and for many reasons just a model.
If I say "great CFD, F1eng", you get an ego boost and jump around all day, if nobody does you get angry and depressed?
ALL contrubutions are appreciated. And yes, ALL are questioned. We don't make the cars, so we don't need to actually arrive at a solution, but by lots of debate, often a kind of consensus emerges, and if it doesn't, it is OK anyways. The trip is fun, the final answers only the icing in the cake.

[horse]

Sorry, guys, going against the flow, but I just can't see the nose contributing significantly to the drag of this car. You, know, where is pressure drag generated? The flow under the nose is difficult to simulate because of the wing, wheels and moving ground and there are no particular discontinuities in it. Ok, so there may be a little more skin friction than others given the more curvy shape, but significant amounts of drag? I really don't see it.

[bugref]

well i am not that aero techno expert though, but i am not swayed by any expert here that the nose has nothing to do with their lack of speed in straight. if you look at the picture closely most changes were made on the nose, so probably they are trying hard to make a workaround on the front side of the car to make it work, but so far their updates seems not working.

1st test


2nd test


Bahrain


Those with red mark were the removed components.
Those with neon colored greedblue where components that were subjected for change.
The blue ones were the new updates installed.

[bar555]

FRONT END CHANGES AT BAHRAIN


1.The nose cone winglets were moved lower on the nose tip
2.The side nose spoilers are now absent
3.The nose cone tip hole is now enlarged to improve nose housed electronics .
4.Spoilers are added
5.Nose fins are added

[marcush.]

rtl -broadcaster of F1 races in germany and loudspeaker of MS and merc states todays:

Understeer issue stems from weight distribution too far towards the front ,no ballast in the front end left that could be used for shifting weight.Team at home is
working frantic at a fianl solution ,and looks for possible weight savings in the front end of the car....

As a stop gap ,a new front wing iteration will be tested in Australia .this should help but will not provide the definite solution...

so at least in laymans terms we were not far away from what is to be done..??

or will in reality a new layout giving better yaw response...and we all are fooled by the media... I ´ll give it a deep thought.


http://www.rtl.de/cms/information/forme ... 5591126935

[JohnsonEvilTwin]

Marcush

Thanks for the link. So then, if you are struggling with weight distribution too forward biased, and with a nose that gargamel would be proud of. Would you not redesign the nose?

Front wing is a temp fix. Total rethink required