Mercedes GP MGP W01

[marcush.]

maybe the trend was apparent already later in the year 2009 with updates shedding weight at the rear ??? just a thought..

If they'd picked up on it then marcush, I doubt it would be a problem for this car. I think, as was mentioned earlier, they have miscalculated the performance of the new front tyres and have not allowed enough margin to compensate.

I thought this as well ,but it bemuses me that they seemed to be at a loss last year when the car went away from them in the second half of the year and did not really look really convincing anymore ..at least not in terms they were on top of the car at all times..(as they stated we know what is wrong but failed to come back to their previous form ) ...so was it just the others getting better or Brawn not analysing the root course of their tyre issues ?

With what we see now i´d say they did not really undertsnad what happened as they
fell into a similar trap this year again in need for a solution not in the possibilities of setup of the car....so clearly they have failed to understand the problem.end of story.

[WhiteBlue]

The car suits Rosberg but not Schumacher. So I don't think that the design team made a mistake. They just continued a design philosophy that worked for Button. With the homologation of certain components the job isn't as easy as it was some years ago. You cannot make changes to the suspension design which would necessitate changes to the tub. All this will have to wait for next year. If the solution lies in such changes we may not see Michael faster than Rosberg this year. But perhaps he can learn to drive the car different?

[marcush.]

The car suits Rosberg but not Schumacher. So I don't think that the design team made a mistake. They just continued a design philosophy that worked for Button. With the homologation of certain components the job isn't as easy as it was some years ago. You cannot make changes to the suspension design which would necessitate changes to the tub. All this will have to wait for next year. If the solution lies in such changes we may not see Michael faster than Rosberg this year. But perhaps he can learn to drive the car different?

the wishbones can be altered so a move of the wheels forward should be feasible.

the car is too slow ,if it suits rosberg or not is of no importance when you are 8tenths or more behind.
After 8000 km of testing i´d believe there is not much to find in setup anymore
and so we would have to think about a flawed design .
As we have agreed in lengthy discussions in recent months the basic tub design is rarely the reason for a car not performing (which I do not think is entirely true)
it is the things you stick to the tub that will decide if you win or loose.

[dren]

The car suits Rosberg but not Schumacher. So I don't think that the design team made a mistake. They just continued a design philosophy that worked for Button. With the homologation of certain components the job isn't as easy as it was some years ago. You cannot make changes to the suspension design which would necessitate changes to the tub. All this will have to wait for next year. If the solution lies in such changes we may not see Michael faster than Rosberg this year. But perhaps he can learn to drive the car different?

the wishbones can be altered so a move of the wheels forward should be feasible.

the car is too slow ,if it suits rosberg or not is of no importance when you are 8tenths or more behind.
After 8000 km of testing i´d believe there is not much to find in setup anymore
and so we would have to think about a flawed design .
As we have agreed in lengthy discussions in recent months the basic tub design is rarely the reason for a car not performing (which I do not think is entirely true)
it is the things you stick to the tub that will decide if you win or loose.

I agree there. I am sure the team is redesigning parts to be lighter and more aero efficient, or to bring more downforce, as do all teams. Packaging is a key area for improvement for weight distribution issues.

It looks like the weight is all squished around the fuel tank to lessen change in distribution when the fuel level goes down. Although it shouldn't matter where the weight is as long as the cog is in the tank. Maybe the shorter wheel base was for a guess on tire characteristics.

[PlatinumZealot]

I agree it is not the tub. The tub is just from the drivers toes to his back. It can't be that wrong.

Maybe a cheap and fast way to get things around:

1. New control arms for the front. I left out the rear CA because they are too integrated with the rear(diffuser and Gearbox).

2. Longer but narrower gas tank.

3. Lighten the components at the front. I think a straight Redbull nose is less materialand should perform better so it is a good option. I think they can just slap it on without putting to much time in the wind tunnel. It's gonna work.

4. Adjust radiators to match gas tank and move them back if necessary.

5. A new longer engine cover to cover the extended middle.

[ringo]

I think it's the tub, not directly, but because the tub determines how things are packaged longitudinally right?
Obviously the car was made short by moving the driver forward to get room for the tank and trim down the rear body work.
If you look closely you can see shumachers bum teetering over the splitter, driver placement could be the problem for the weight balance and under steer, who knows?
Secondly i don't think that the COG height is one of the major problems. It's not like last year where they had to improvise with the gearbox and Merc engine, so i think the team would be weary of COG height this year and probably go to extra lengths to get it as low as possible.
Visually i think the driver COG is too far ahead, affecting front aero, because the front has to be bulky to accommodate this, and affecting the balance because driver is to far ahead with such a short wheel base.


Merc need to get Shumacher's ass out of that area. Push it back and put the thy at a steeper angle to cut down the front end bulk. I don't think shifting the weight of the thy upward and having a minute increase in COG because of it will outweigh putting the COG backward for a better balance and the other aero benefits that come with it.
Then again this is all tub design, so i don't know if it can be changed, though increase in wheel base could effectively get some of these things done.

[adam2007]

I think it's the tub, not directly, but because the tub determines how things are packaged longitudinally right?
Obviously the car was made short by moving the driver forward to get room for the tank and trim down the rear body work.
If you look closely you can see shumachers bum teetering over the splitter, driver placement could be the problem for the weight balance and under steer, who knows?
Secondly i don't think that the COG height is one of the major problems. It's not like last year where they had to improvise with the gearbox and Merc engine, so i think the team would be weary of COG height this year and probably go to extra lengths to get it as low as possible.
Visually i think the driver COG is too far ahead, affecting front aero, because the front has to be bulky to accommodate this, and affecting the balance because driver is to far ahead with such a short wheel base.


Merc need to get Shumacher's ass out of that area. Push it back and put the thy at a steeper angle to cut down the front end bulk. I don't think shifting the weight of the thy upward and having a minute increase in COG because of it will outweigh putting the COG backward for a better balance and the other aero benefits that come with it.
Then again this is all tub design, so i don't know if it can be changed, though increase in wheel base could effectively get some of these things done.

makes me laugh you guys trying to say this is how to fix the problem, leave it to the professionals they spends thousands hours in labs and wind tunnels analzying it all. they know a hell lot more than you, if that easy email mercedes and tell them how to improve the car

[ringo]

Yeah i know it's difficult, and not as simple as i put it.
But as you say that, wouldn't such a difficult problem be something that is inherently faulty and has to be worked around? Could be the chassis and tub itself.

[horse]

makes me laugh you guys trying to say this is how to fix the problem, leave it to the professionals they spends thousands hours in labs and wind tunnels analzying it all.

It would be really dull if people didn't speculate on problems and solutions. Indeed, Mercedes know more about the problem and potentially the solution, but I'm sure a similar discussion process is going on in order to improve the car at Mercedes also.

You really don't have to read this thread if you don't want to. Humph.

[adam2007]

makes me laugh you guys trying to say this is how to fix the problem, leave it to the professionals they spends thousands hours in labs and wind tunnels analzying it all.

It would be really dull if people didn't speculate on problems and solutions. Indeed, Mercedes know more about the problem and potentially the solution, but I'm sure a similar discussion process is going on in order to improve the car at Mercedes also.

You really don't have to read this thread if you don't want to. Humph.

sorry just frustration seeing michael finish 6th in a car not on the pace at the min

[marcush.]

I agree it is not the tub. The tub is just from the drivers toes to his back. It can't be that wrong.

Maybe a cheap and fast way to get things around:

1. New control arms for the front. I left out the rear CA because they are too integrated with the rear(diffuser and Gearbox).

2. Longer but narrower gas tank.

3. Lighten the components at the front. I think a straight Redbull nose is less materialand should perform better so it is a good option. I think they can just slap it on without putting to much time in the wind tunnel. It's gonna work.

4. Adjust radiators to match gas tank and move them back if necessary.

5. A new longer engine cover to cover the extended middle.

-elongated fueltank would of course mean :new tub ,so not on
-new front wishbones sure no weightsavings there
-optimised flap actuation could save some(if you get rid of one set of
actuator for example)#
-straight nose could save some
-optimised components -rack -rockers -if you work on all parts all will add up to
something
-look into upright and brakedrum optimisation once again
-pedalbox and mastercylinders sure you will find the odd few grammes

to find more than 1000g in the front will be quite something of an achievement

the longer wheelbase is more likely to be feasible in short time especially with the car so short. It would as well not make the car heavier as the main issues are a different layout of the wishbones geometry plus a move forward of the front wing to keep the distance to the wheels.so the wingsupport on the nose or the nosecone itself would need some work ..so it would move the driver and quite everything
apart from wheels and uprights rearwards so a good move of weightdistribution for the effort .If this would enable a move of 1% or more with the heavy wheel and uprights of course not a variable in the equation is the question ....

on the other hand ,lets assume they have 100kg of ballast in the car..to swap around that would be a whopping 16% of weight to move.. can you
place 100kg of Unobtainium directly beneath the diff ? ...a volume of around 5 litres...(for tungsten as ballast)...

[dren]

Mercedes


Strangely Mercedes seem to be behind the curve on adjusting to the new tyres. As the W01 does not seem to have the same levels of grip and balance, as its rivals. A continuing belief is that the car carries too much weight, too far forward in the chassis. While it’s true that the Mercedes still carries its huge slab of ballast in the front splitter, switching to a more rearwards weight split is relatively easy. It’s certainly easier to shift weight backwards than forwards, as there is more space around the gearbox for ballast. So perhaps the problem is the front to rear aero split, which tends to be a few percent off the weight split. Creating more rear downforce, costs drag if done with the rear wing, so a more powerful diffuser is required. One option is that the cars created the ideal weight balance and matches its aero with less total downforce, but a correct split front to rear. If these are indeed the problems then the car will need a new floor and front aero to correct the issue. This will probably take until Spain certainly china at the earliest. this issue resolved I can see no weakness in the car that prevent it taking race wins, it will just be that several races have passed by and their rivals championship leads will be extended. \Melbourne may not suit the car with its dependence on front end grip, the team may have some workarounds, but it’s likely its Spain they are most looking forward to.

[dren]

I'm guessing some of the weight distribution has been shifted towards the rear. The front nose wings were removed, reducing front down force and also probably aiding in a little reduced drag. I don't know how much the new front wing added, so this could be negated by that. I'm guessing the new diffuser added some underbody down force or is more efficient at the same level of down force.

If the center of down force (is this the correct term?) was shifted towards the rear, than this leads us to assume so was some of the ballast.

Maybe the parts added/moved were just for aero efficiency and gains in down force all around. The team seems to still need to redesign parts of the car for better balance.

[horse]

I think a lot of it comes down it to which part of the track they are having balance problems. If its in medium to high speed corners then an aero fix would seem ideal, however, if it's in the slower stuff, I can't see how adjusting the aero will work.

Scarbs seems pretty convinced that it can't be a low speed problem or it would be easily sorted with ballast so, in this case, we must assume it's a problem in the higher speed stuff.

[JohnsonEvilTwin]

I respect Scarbs, he has given me alot of insight into F1 and even in this article has shed light on somthing i didnt know.
Mercedes has a lot of balast in and around the front splitter.
If this is the case then as he said, its easier to move the weight backwards.
Ok so it isnt a "quick fix" but it certainly do able within a month or so. And this does go with what Brawn has said, "Base is good, just need a little time and we will be there".

So I feel a bit more optimistic that the MGP001 can at least look racy even if its at certain tracks.