Le Mans 24 hours 2010

[dumrick]

That could be expected, given the fact that Norma developed the car to cost 50% of any other LMP (those roll hoops look quite 1980's-vintage, that's true!). The initial tests seem to have been positive and Norma is a company that has already proved its competence in making sports cars.

If the car is mechanically good, then it's possible they will have a market in 2011 LMP1 racing.

[wesley123]

I sure believe, but the 'serious' contenders will rather pick an lola, courage or go an alternative route. This car has more the idea of being a more fun racer rather then a serious contender like the Lolas. A customer chassis itself is simply always an problem, as it is built to be able to handle an variety of engines, compare that to the peugeot for example wich is purpose built for its engine. That is simply an handicap wich the teams cannot overcome. for example,the drayson is incredibly fast, surely the pace is there, but if that car would have been purpose built to only fit an Judd engine it could have been alot faster, and that is simply a problem. Imo there should be an class for the manufacturers like peugeot and private teams who more race for fun like drayson, that would give alot more equal chances.

[dumrick]

I totally agree with you, in the fact that a purpose-developed car is the way to go if you're looking for outright performance, but the fact is that most LMP2 privateers are looking at LMP1 for 2011 and there's a market there - and those teams are not going to develop their own machines.

As for buying a Lola instead of the Norma, I personally think that the Lola is just a decent car - a coupe that wastes the possibility of sitting the driver lower than in a open car, has a huge frontal area and that's regularly beaten by Ginetta-Zyteks (a car based in a 2002 Reynard), HPDs, Pescarolos and Orecas it's a waste of money, in my opinion.

[RacingManiac]

Probably still better than Norma though....

Lola is a bit of an up and down thing. The teams matters a lot in that category. The Lola coupe was plenty fast in the Charouz AMR guise a few years back, and their open car was competitive in Dyson's hand(not to the extend of the Diesels obviously), even the current P2 Coupe in ALMS is probably as good as the RS Spyder in outright speed, just seem more fragile.

Sucks that I won't be able to watch this on TV this year....will be in Montreal for the F1 race on the same weekend...

[dumrick]

Probably still better than Norma though....

I really can't see the point of discussing or assuming the competitiveness of a car that hasn't yet raced. It doesn't look hype? Well they seem to have worked in front wheel well air extraction better than some other LMP builders, that still require draggy louvers over the wheels... are we being serious in this discussion or are we little kids discussing which car has higher top speed by looking at the speedometer?

Lola is a bit of an up and down thing. The teams matters a lot in that category.

Yes, they do. And engines too. If you want to understand the results of Charouz or Dyson (as well as Dyson's lack of reliability), you really just have to look at their powerplants. If you want to compare chassis, compare those who use similar engines.

[RacingManiac]

Louvers usage means nothing. Cars are required to have a set amount of them. Most car runs minimum at Le Mans trim, and start adding more as lift-drag(negative lift) requirement changes. If they need more they will add more. Seeing the car is just being shaken down for Le Mans use, its not a off the mark guess that this is their lowest DF trim.

If I have a set amount of money to spent on buying a P2 car(not quite Acura/HPD or RS Spyder level money), its much more likely that a Lola, has been changed every year(in small details) since the debut of the current rule, and has been used by many, and had been competitive in more capable teams, built by a company that has been in customer car business in this level since forever, will be more competitive than a relatively new car like Norma. If Lola only makes crappy cars, they'd be out of business long before, in a field as hard to make money as a race car constructor.

BTW, armchair CFD usage on this forum is prevalent, its no more on or off base commenting on this vs commenting on F1 cars....

[dumrick]

Louvers usage means nothing. Cars are required to have a set amount of them. Most car runs minimum at Le Mans trim, and start adding more as lift-drag(negative lift) requirement changes. If they need more they will add more. Seeing the car is just being shaken down for Le Mans use, its not a off the mark guess that this is their lowest DF trim.

Cars are not required to have louvres. They are need in some chassis for front wheel well air extraction to balance front/rear downforce. I mentioned louvres as an example, since they penalise drag at low downforce circuits and are a good indication, if used in low DF trim, that efficiency is compromised because of lack of front DF. Also, the configuration and location of louvres is important, naturally.
Audi R15+ manages to extract enough air laterally behind the wheel to avoid their use, the fact that Norma apparently does the same could be a good indication.

I'm not saying that the Norma M200 is competitive. Nobody knows (and even after Le Mans, its full potential will still be unknown - Pegasus is a small team with little track record and the Norma will be the only petrol engined LMP that didn't benefit of any waiver, allowing him to not comply with 2010/2011 rules).

What I'm saying is that there are lots of things to think about when analysing this cars:

- ultimate performance isn't that paramount in endurance racing. For a privateer team, some with pro-am driver line-ups, it's more important for the car to be easy and confortable to drive by all drivers and easily exploitable technically.

- Norma sportscars are usually conservative, but competitive machinery. They seem to know what they are doing and what's important in endurance - they even have a backup system to allow gearshifts if any problem occurs with the paddle system. I think that's a nice touch and the proof that they understand what's important.

- The Norma is fitted with state-of-the-art costumer engine and transmission (a X-Trac unit). That at (reportedly) half the price of any other LMP chassis. Since we are talking about a costumer chassis, from a company that plans on selling more, that could make the car marketable.

Concerning the use of armchair CFD (nice concept, is it open-source? ), I'm just glad that the level of discussion in sportscar threads isn't the same as in F1 ones...

[dumrick]

If Lola only makes crappy cars, they'd be out of business long before, in a field as hard to make money as a race car constructor.

I'm not saying that the Lola is a crappy car. But Jan Charouz, after driving the OAK Pescarolo said that it "is a better chassis than the Lola". Take the difference in structure between Lola and Pescarolo and draw your conclusions.

[wesley123]

If Lola only makes crappy cars, they'd be out of business long before, in a field as hard to make money as a race car constructor.

I'm not saying that the Lola is a crappy car. But Jan Charouz, after driving the OAK Pescarolo said that it "is a better chassis than the Lola". Take the difference in structure between Lola and Pescarolo and draw your conclusions.

Well, it is just an opinion from Charouz, it doenst mean it is true. The pescarolo and Lola are both completely different cars, so it can be that the pescarolo just fits his style more. I mean, people dont prefer the Lola over an courage for nothing. The Lola has a positive part of it being under continuous development. An downside of it is that it can hold an huge varieity of engines and that it's core car is still similair over the B99 car, so the car itself is pretty much older then the Courage. If Lola for example decided to offer 2 possible engines per model and offer more models it would be much better. The you have an model wich can hold 2 similair engines and adjust cooling for it. It would put a little more load on the staff, nut it simply allows the cars to be put more to the limit, thus faster(it sounds stupid this way, but i think you udnerstand the line it goes).

The lola has, compared to the other cars, huge sidepods, just because it isnt purpose built for one engine, this is an huge downsode for the cars pace

[dumrick]

There will be 56 cars at the start of the race. A new entry was accepted for the Radical SR9 of Race Performance to be driven by Ralph Meichtry, Pierre Bruneau and Marc Rostan.

In 2011, the number of cars to be selected in the usual way will still be 55, but a 56th spot will be reserved for a team with a specific and original project.

[vyselegend]

If you're interessed, you can add your signature to support Pescarolo, on:

http://www.pescarolo2011.com/

Sadly, the site seems to be only available in french ATM, but cheers from any country are certainly welcome.
I'm very sad they won't be on the grid this year, kind of spoil the ambiance, but I wish them the best for the future, as I'm sure they'll come back even stronger next year...

BMW's art car by Jeff Koons has also been presented.

That BMW art car is looking more interesting in real than in the artwork, I must admit.
Hope none of the drivers crossing it's way is epileptic though...


Concerning the Norma, it has to be competitive, because even at half the price of the concurrence, nobody will be intersted in it, if it can't pretend to some decent results. Also, trying to asset the real level of competitivity of a private car (or a factory car in private's hands) is a slippery game, because performance will differ too much from teams to teams, based on the overall level of the crews (and luck, strategy, etc).

Just look how far Dyson were from Penske when both had the RS Spyder, or even how much difference there is between current FLM cars, despite it's a spec car!

Here's the Norma in action on the Bugatti:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EebA2LrJ ... r_embedded[/youtube]

[RacingManiac]

Cars are not required to have louvres.

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/2010LMP12.pdf

3.4.6 - Air extractors :
a/ They must comply with article 3.4.1 above.
b/ They must not protrude beyond the perimeter of the
bodywork, viewed from above ;
c/ They are mandatory above the front wheels without
protruding more than 20 mm (louvers) :
• Total area of the openings : 25 sq. in. (160 cm2) as a
minimum on each side.

This rule has been around since the 2000 LMP rule I believe, was one of the original rule package to deal with the flying cars of the late 90s.

Without seeing Norma in any other trim, you can't say for sure that they won't need such device when they need more downforce....

As far as the cost goes, Radical tried to play that game too, they even got a Le Mans winning designer in Peter Elleray to design the SR9, and all around seems to be a decent car, but it was ultimately not that competitive in the field, which is still rather saturated with Zytek and Lola.

[dumrick]

Thanks RacingManiac, I didn't know about the existence of that rule. Anyway, it's pretty vague and only requires to have some kind of louvers, no size or area are mandated.

And, of course, we don't know how the Norma will look in high downforce trim, but I was talking about how detrimental for performance they are in a circuit like Le Mans, not quite the same can be said about other circuits.

I also commented on how the particular configuration of the louvers matters, Audi, Norma and others have them recessed, flush with the bodywork and behind the wheels centerline, in a area where it doesn't affect planview area of the car. Actually, in that area, it even may help fill a low pressure zone.

And we all agree that Norma will only have a market if their car is a decent competitor. When I mentioned how potentially important is the price of the car for the market's interest, it doesn't mean it doesn't have to be fast, in the end, it's all about racing.

Since you mention Peter Elleray, I don't remember him being too happy about the Radical. How cool, however, would it be for someone to buy the IP of the Embassy WF01 he designed and do a LMP out of it, the way the Zytek relates to the orginal Reynard design?



I remember it being a car with a lot of potential, eventually hindered by the economical downturn. And no, I don't think I'm biased by the Embassy girls...

[Pandamasque]

It would be great if someone bought the EE1 IP too. That car had real potential but needed some development, then came the crisis, and now F1 tender, and now it doesn't look like Epsilon Euskadi consider going back to Le Mans.

And I don't expect the Norma to be anywhere near the top running LMP2 cars (at least the HPDs, RML Lola, OAK Pescarolo). Even if it's a state-of-the-art machine with that budget and having so little time for testing and development it doesn't stand a chance at the moment.

In 2011, the number of cars to be selected in the usual way will still be 55, but a 56th spot will be reserved for a team with a specific and original project.

That sounds like some kind of Porsche Hybrid.

PS: absolutely love the Art M3. Just imagine the night shots!

[dumrick]

The LMP2 and LMGT1 previews from Planetlemans.com are online.

Concerning the EE01, I had little consideration for it, but it had a pretty good pace in qualifying. Finishing races seemed more difficult, though... nevertheless, it's a good drive in rFactor