What is Ferrari?

[autogyro]

....
Luca says Ferrari will never be the greenest and thats fair enough, but have no green at all is just plain stupid. In the next 10 years expect an ailing FIAT to sell its prized possession to alleviate its woes. And once that happens, Ferrari will becaome a cash cow.....nothing ever lasts for ever.

Ferrari will be incorporating some sort of hybrid technology into their future models. But only to supplement the normal ICE, not take their place.

Unfortunately it is Iternationaly agreed future vehicle regulations on emmisions that will force Ferrari and all other sports and super car manufacturers to look at Hybrid and pure electric much harder than through the narrow focus blinkers they are all using at present.
At the moment Ferrari is just playing at the technology with no idea just how hard the new world is going to hit them.
F1 is being used to delay this inevitable change, in fact the demands of the manufacturers through FOTA to keep the public in the dark, is slowly becoming the sole purpose of F1.

[domdogger]

Ferrari is a pretty body shell over a skimpy chassis with a poor copy of Lotus suspension.
Good power train but built over complex to keep others hands off.
Cheap upholstery, with, in some cases abysmal door controls and switches.
Up until recently, fairly difficult to drive.
Oh and F1 Ferrari's, simply a way to spend money.

I must ask, do you own a recent Ferrari?

I'm also sure that its not a copy of lotus suspension and a skimpy chassis considering they develop there cars from the f1 side of ferrari

[mx_tifoso]

Domdogger, please tell us that you're joking with the last sentence of your post, specifically the last part.

[domdogger]

i do believe that f1 can help with setting up suspension geometry, hybrids, etc. and generally new designs.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

....
Luca says Ferrari will never be the greenest and thats fair enough, but have no green at all is just plain stupid. In the next 10 years expect an ailing FIAT to sell its prized possession to alleviate its woes. And once that happens, Ferrari will becaome a cash cow.....nothing ever lasts for ever.

Ferrari will be incorporating some sort of hybrid technology into their future models. But only to supplement the normal ICE, not take their place.

Thats exactly why its doomed to fail Mx.

Supplement is just not good enough. When cars are lambasted as bastians of climate change(harshly), they need to respond correctly to survive, or die.
To have hybrids to supplement a thirsty V8 is not solving anything is it?

Whats the bet in 10 years cars will be under the same preconcieved stress that Tobacco companies faced in the 80s. Its actually debatable that they are currently facing this threat now in some quarters!

Great engineering houses like Honda Mercedes BMW Toyota VW are all pushing for alternative means of power. Even if its, power recuperation.
Yet LdM is adamant this is not the Ferrari way....

The noveau riche I feel will disagree very shortly, when driving a Ferrari is tantanmount to smoking a pack of Marlboro in a michelin starred restaurant.

A pseudonym for CO2 excess at a time where ones Co2 footprint is becoming more relevant.

Shows how much of a dinosaur LdM actually is....

[mx_tifoso]

The thing is that Ferrari shouldn't be held in the same group as normal large production manufacturers. Let's put it this way, Ferrari is a nice, high end cigar, whereas examples of Toyota, BMW, and Honda are everyday cigarettes.

Most Ferrari's won't even do 100,000 miles in their lifetime, compared to a normal passenger model which will see that in a handful of years. The lifetime Co2 outputs are in totally different leagues. Ferrari operates in a special niche, therefore I don't think that it should have to abide by the same rules, regulations, and social standards as normal high mileage/production passenger manufacturers.

I'm not saying that efficiency should be set aside, but it shouldn't be as hardcore as a Volt or Prius. Why? Because it doesn't warrant that sort of technology or level of efficiency for its intended use.

FI, DI, and KERS are already in the works. That's enough to keep the soul of Ferrari; engines. What's Ferrari without a high revving engine? Nothing IMO.

If the future regulations see to it that Ferrari dies then fine, that would be better than seeing a neutered, self pitying model rolling (or 'humming') down the street.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The "Ferrari are special" argument is not worthy.

So are Lamborghini, Pagani(more so I would say than Ferrari), Bugatti(ditto) Porsche, Koenigsegg, Panoz, AMG Blackseries, Spyker, Gemballa, Aston Martin, Maserati(who were Italy's number 1 until Citroen ownership), McLaren, Farboud, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Maybach, Ruf, Brabus, Gumpert, Weismann, Mosler........

And the list goes on and on of cars that cost the thick end of $150,000 dollars to part for a set of wheels, which is effectively what all the above are.

Why is a Ferrari different from anyone else?

Try use your 458 like a Porsche and I swear to you, you will miss your Porsche after a week. Well maybe not you MX, but a neutral would!

The passion etc is all down to personal taste, and is lost on me.

The F40 was/is glorious and will always be one of my faves. But Ferrari is no different from any other MAKER OF CARS regardless of the PR bull they choose to sell. They are just more exclusive.
Bringing me nicely as to why they will be exposed in the coming decade, anyone who disagrees with this is either an ardent fan or cannot see market forces.

[mx_tifoso]

I used Ferrari as an example because this thread is about them. Obviously there are other players in their niche market but I felt it wasn't necessary to mention them.

And btw, I happen to like the GT3 RS more than any current Ferrari model. Given the money to purchase either one it would be the RS.

Edit: It should be noted that the RS isn't a direct competitor to the base 458 Italia. But since the 458 has not yet evolved into the third phase that leaves the RS as a purer option for the time being.

[donskar]

The "Ferrari are special" argument is not worthy.

So are Lamborghini, Pagani(more so I would say than Ferrari), Bugatti(ditto) Porsche, Koenigsegg, Panoz, AMG Blackseries, Spyker, Gemballa, Aston Martin, Maserati(who were Italy's number 1 until Citroen ownership), McLaren, Farboud, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Maybach, Ruf, Brabus, Gumpert, Weismann, Mosler........

And the list goes on and on of cars that cost the thick end of $150,000 dollars to part for a set of wheels, which is effectively what all the above are.

Why is a Ferrari different from anyone else?

Try use your 458 like a Porsche and I swear to you, you will miss your Porsche after a week. Well maybe not you MX, but a neutral would!

The passion etc is all down to personal taste, and is lost on me.

The F40 was/is glorious and will always be one of my faves. But Ferrari is no different from any other MAKER OF CARS regardless of the PR bull they choose to sell. They are just more exclusive.
Bringing me nicely as to why they will be exposed in the coming decade, anyone who disagrees with this is either an ardent fan or cannot see market forces.

You miss the point completely.

Koenigsegg, Panoz, AMG Blackseries, Spyker, Gemballa

Which of them has a mythic, iconic stature? What great names are associated with any of them?

MAKER OF CARS

Ferrari is more than a maker of cars. They are a maker of myth and legend. Of instant status.

Botom line: we do not have a thread named "What is Bugatti?" or McLaren, or BRM, or Koenisegg, or Panoz, ad nauseum. They are merely "makers of cars."

Yes, as you say: "The passion . . . is lost on me." And you are the poorer for it.

[jon-mullen]

'nuff said.

The only other car company that comes even close to their pedigree is Porsche and that's because they've been making the same car for 50 years. Every other company you list, JET, either hasn't raced their cars as long or as consistently (Lambo, Maserati), is newer to the scene (McLaren, Koenigsegg, Panoz), or doesn't make exclusively sports cars (Aston, Bentley, Rolls).

...whereas examples of Toyota, BMW, and Honda are everyday cigarettes. ....

Did you really just put BMW between Toyota and Honda? [-X Toyota hasn't even made a sports car in five years, much less won the WTCC, much less won an F1 race after spending all that money...

[mx_tifoso]

Yup I did, incorrectly perhaps? But I think BMW is diluting itself by increasing it's volume and putting out so many models, especially the SAV variety. And while I love that brand only a few of the current series call my attention; X5, 3-series, 5-series. No M3 I'm afraid.

The first image is of which model in the post above?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

You miss the point completely.

Yes, as you say: "The passion . . . is lost on me." And you are the poorer for it.

That what hasn't been gained can never be lost donskar. And I think it would be futile to debate with you seen as your signature says all that needs to be said about where your "allegiance" lies. Lets me just say they will not be as "mythical" in 10 years time.....

Mx I applaud your response. =D>

Jon Mullen, you ever hear of Lexus? To be more specific the Lexus LF-A 5.0 V10 supercar.
As for Honda, you really should know better than to dismiss them. The inventors of "cam-switching" V-tec which Ferrari borrowed heavily to use in their own engines.
I know a few Ferrari fans and most of them dont have a clue about cars.....

A great company Ferrari, but all the PR and emotive rubbish does it no favours in my eyes. Anyone been to a Ferrari centre? Where the hell is the car?
You can buy a a baby pram with a prancing horse on it for £1000 but no bloody car....A mug for £60....No car....a jacket for 500....etc etc

[jon-mullen]

mx, I know what you mean about so many models. It's sort of one of those high-class problems, like when a great rock band needs the exposure of a big label and gets accused of selling out. They only get there because they're good but you can't help disliking their next album.

The first pic is the 1961 Ferrari 250 GT SWB Berlinetta. Some day...

Jon Mullen, you ever hear of Lexus? To be more specific the Lexus LF-A 5.0 V10 supercar.

I've seen commercials for it, if that's what you're asking. I guarantee you they'll spend more on making it and warranty claims on it than they will in sales. Lexus would never be able to survive making only sports cars.

As for Honda, you really should know better than to dismiss them. The inventors of "cam-switching" V-tec which Ferrari borrowed heavily to use in their own engines.

No doubt they make some great engines, whether they go for power or economy, but you and I both know that if you go on the street and say "Honda" to someone they're going to picture an econobox. In a thread about Ferrari's legacy you're grasping at straws.

[autogyro]

I have worked on the early GTO.
We made some hub adaptors for it to fit a mobile dyno and did engine tests.
Nice engine.
14 Million last sale I believe.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

So Lexus making money on the LF-A is relevant? [-X

Lexus would never be able to survive making only sports cars.

Very presumptuous dont you think? I think alot of people said they could never match the germans selling Luxury cars........

And if you ask me what Honda stands for, its simple. Great cars you can use all day every day. Ferrari can never hope to make an S2000 competitor, or even a Civic Type R competitor. Yet Honda can, and have ably demonstrated that it can beat Ferrari at its own game for a third of the price and a far more useable car in the NSX.
In some cirlces this car holds more cachet than the Ferrari's of the day...and rightly so.

And the thread is...What is Ferrari? Not what is Ferrari's legacy.

As I have said on 3 occasions now they are a great company, but they should not feel they are above anyone simply because they are Ferrari.
And by ignoring the CO2 issues by saying hybrids will only be used to boost performance than actually reduce emmisions, They are looking at this the wrong way round.....and it will have heavy consequences IMO