Promotion, and relegation on bbc news

[rmw_77]

Motorsport chief Max Mosley has said that promotion and relegation are likely to be introduced to Formula One in two years time.
Mosley is keen to bring financial stability and reduced costs into the sport - and then add some new interest and a better structure.

"It is one of the new things we are looking at and it would be nice because it is necessary," said Mosley.

"Promotion, and relegation, would add a huge amount of new interest."

Mosley's plan would see Formula One relegating its bottom team, or two, to a 'second division' competition created out of the current GP2 series, which would, in turn, supply replacement promoted teams.

"It is natural and it would be very stimulating for everyone," said Mosley, who is president of the sport's governing body, the FIA.

"But first we do have to get the costs fully under control so that promoted teams, quite possibly smaller, independent teams, could afford to make the step up into Formula One."

Mosley is hoping to cut Formula One budgets from £250m to about £65m - a figure he believes an ambitious and successful promoted junior team could find.

"They will already have some success, an efficient management and sponsors.

"And they will gain more money, from the commercial side of Formula One, when they go up - thanks to Bernie Ecclestone's increase in payments - and should also find extra sponsors."

Meanwhile, Mosley remains confident that the Belgian Grand Prix will return to the Formula One schedule in 2007.

The race was withdrawn from the 2006 calendar while the circuit at Spa-Francorchamps undergoes major repairs and improvements.

But Mosley has insisted that the race, a favourite among drivers, must stay on the calendar in the future.

"When the race returns to Belgium in 2007, it should stay," he said.

[RH1300S]

Phew good old Max!

My GUT feel is - "interesting idea".

As soon as you even scratch the surface you can see that problems arise immediately.

Budget and organisational differences between GP2 & F1 are huge. A newly promoted team would suddenly need to massively increase it's budgets and organisation (as it stands now ) and what does a demoted team do with it's facilities?

I think I am right to say that GP2 buy engines & chassis and then run the team at races. In F1 the rules state that you must manufacture your chassis.

So, unless there are plans afoot to change things somewhere - I don't really buy it.

Lots more can be said...........

[zac510]

If only F1 were as fundamentally simple as football: a ground, a few players and a coach.

[Scuderia_Russ]

There's nothing like the threat of relegation to get a team spending!

[monkeyboy1976]

I agree that it is an interesting idea but gets complicated when you think about it.
I can't see the gap between GP2 and F1 closing until teams are able to buy chassis and compete in F1. The fact that they have to make their own is the reason for the astronomical costs.
I suppose the final situation would be that teams who are promoted can buy chassis from the other larger teams (this would provide some good income for those teams). Then, as the newly promoted customer teams get better and better, they can start to invest in their own chassis design and construction.
It would take a long time to establish nicely and get balanced. It'll require real smart management and regulation (both sporting and technical) on the part of the FIA. There would have to be rules to ensure one manufacturer does not completely take over.
I like the idea but it needs to be fleshed out a bit first. There has to be an incentive for customer teams to eventually establish their own designs and there also needs to be agreement on how they get to that point (funding/prizemoney/income share etc..)

[RH1300S]

One thing nagging is..........

"what is the point?" I can sort of see where the gain is in promotion, but where does relegation fit in - would Honda continue to race in GP2 (lets call it that for now) if they were bottom of the league in F1?

Want to get more people into F1? Well it looks like they can fill the grids anyway.

Want to get rid of the rubbish? Well, these days they run out of money

As far as moving young drivers/other talent up the sport - well the cream rises naturally.

What about moving teams up the sport? Don't see the need/point. Jordan did it all those years back, but effectively they had to change to become an F1 team - i.e. their whole focus went to F1. If the new reg's proposed contain budgets, then other teams may well make the jump without the need of promotion.

I'm sure this has something to do with letting people use chassis manufactured by other teams. This is a whole different argument with pros & cons

Maybe my Honda example at the top of the page is part of the answer - the manufacturers probably wouldn't bother....................

[monkeyboy1976]

Demotion is a good question. If a team like Honda was demoted to GP2, they could still have an income from providing chassis and engines to GP2 and F1. I am sure that if they were demoted, they would return very quickly to F1. If the team was managed correctly and had decent staff and drivers, they would have no problems. If it wasn't, then they would rightly drop down and sell out.
Like you said, the cream will naturally rise to the top.

[DaveKillens]

The Condorde Agreement expires in two years, and Mad max intends a completely new legal and rules structure. These statements are a prelude to positioning himself (and the FIA) where they have more control over teams. It's all about power and control, and having the ability to demote a team is a nice bit of threat to have in your back pocket.
Don't be surprised if a team could be relegated to the second division if their performance is poor.... AND, if they piss Max off
Personally, I believe this position will not happen, not if Honda or Toyota or Renault or any other major manufacturer is in the party. As well, we would not see surprises anymore, things would get quite static. For example, Red Bull would not be able to get where they are now.

[mcdenife]

After reading the analysis below at the link below, I have to agree with Dave:

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns16259.html

[monkeyboy1976]

The whole relegation thing IMHO is simple. If a team is promoted from GP2, buys new chassis from current F1 constructor team and then gets relegated again then tough tits. If a constructor team is relegated then they can still get a good revenue from selling chassis and engines to othe teams. This is something that is different from football. Football teams only source of income is ticket sales, promo stuff and tv money. They have no real product to produce on a constant basis and sell if the need the rises. This is something the F1 constructor teams will have and will therefore protect them. This is my feeling at the moment but I might change my mind again later!
I'm up for a debate.

[mcdenife]

And what about bridging the budget gap from $4m (max for GP2) and $50 (min for F1)? Can any promoted team seriously compete in their 1st year assuming the could bridge the gap? Why raise that kind of capital only to get relegated the following as will inevitably happen.

[monkeyboy1976]

That's true, for the current situation. Although I think the bond to enter F1 will be abolished under the new Concorde Agreement. I think I read it somewhere. That, coupled with a larger share of the revenue cake, will help bridge the gap.

[johny]

a good thing like flavio posted is controling budgets, with the same money let's see who makes a better car. That could be usefull for max proposal

[mcdenife]

The bond will have to be abolished for this to happen anyway. The promoted team cannot get a share in F1 revenue if they were not in F1, in other words the end of the season or beginning of the next season. Then what about the F1 infrastructure required? This takes a while. So why would a promoted team invest in infrastructure/personel knowing they will be relegated the following year? You cant get the infrastructure in a year and you cant compete seriously without it.

[DaveKillens]

Maybe this is all about reducing the budget for all teams. Mad Max has stated that there are two, three motor racing organizations (like Penske) who would consider F1, but only if the budget costs were less.
So Max gets his budget ceiling in place, and a few more teams show up on the grid. Personally, I would like to see more than a dozen teams on the grid.
Speaking of being regulated down a notch, imagine if that rule was in place a few years ago. What if Sauber suffered a few race mistakes, and wound up dead last in the standings? He had just invested a huge chunk of money into a new wind tunnel..... poof, bye bye.
And if this was ever to happen, we could see some team perpetually go from F1 to F2, and back, on a yearly basis.. too weak for F1, but compared to the smaller fish in F2, a biannual winner.
There are just too many holes in this regulation thing to see how it could be made to work realistically.
Does anyone else smell NASCAR? They have different tiers of performance, and although teams do not get sent down based on poor performance, this whole class structure and method of controlling the teams smells like how NASCAR does business.