New Indycar for 2012

[wesley123]

I would like to know in wich way the Delta Wing isn't outdated? It is just an fighter jet without the wings...

Reasons why not to chose the delta wing:
-It is ugly
-It is ugly
-It is ugly
-Why take an fighter jet when you can have an normal looking car?
-An too complicated design
-My a$$ that the DW was cheaper
-The Dallara allows variation between cars
-It is ugly
-it doesnt look like an car

Seriously there is no reason to run the delta wing, it is simply incredibly ugly, it has an very unsafe look, Indy cars do not allow rockets to fire at others, it has electronics to help them aim for turns, and the indy carsraces take place on the ground, not in the air(and whatever fighter jet joke you can think up that fits here.

Give an good reason why the Delta Wing is such an great engineering piece, afterall it is just an fighter jet copy with an small underbody tunnel and an incredibly low powered engine...

50 yrs ago, Mid engine car is ugly
40 yrs ago, winglet car is ugly
30 yrs ago, ground effect car is ugly

but how about today?

it have no incredibly low powered engine, but the current design have incredibly high aerodynamic drag

Dude, what is that to say 'it hasnt a low powered ngine, the others have highdrag.'
I really dont have words for it, it is just an stupid sentence wichdoesnt say anything.

The DW has lower drag yes, but i dont get the point of that, i dont evn get how that contributes to the looks.

You have used alot of words but stillhave said nothing, so i ask it again what makes the DW such an great car(it looks like an fighter jet, but it is an car lol(atleast, that is what they want to tell us))?

[Scania]

Dude, what is that to say 'it hasnt a low powered ngine, the others have highdrag.'
I really dont have words for it, it is just an stupid sentence wichdoesnt say anything.

The DW has lower drag yes, but i dont get the point of that, i dont evn get how that contributes to the looks.

If you watch F1, after the "Massa's accident", some people were said that why don't we cover the wheel to make safer? however, this idea was banned, because normal closed wheel race car is look like a flight wing, it genarate up force, the radical case is MB CLR & 911 GT1. so it is not a solution to cover the wheel on Formula car. although it won't take off, but the extra up force means that you need more wing to make down force to blance it.

when the DW is start to design, "Delta car" is not a premise, it just because the open wheel make 54% aero drag, they want to dispel it, but as the up force, they ban "Indy Prototype" idea because the extra winglet will bring the drag back, but the down force is still lower then formula car.

that means they want to cover the wheels, but they can't extend the body to the front wheel location. the most simple solution is do it oppositely---contract the wheel near the body.

the side-effect is the narrow front parts make frontal aero smaller, so aero drag is much more lower.

and the closed suspension means the shock can connected to A_arm directley, connecting rod is unneeded, it make the car lighter. narror front track means suspension arm and front parts of chassis can be smaller, that means the front axle will be lighter and lighter.

the revolution new meterial chassis make the structure can be more complex, lesser material will be needed to keep the same strength, all that concept make the car can be lighter lighter and lighter.

as the weight of car is so light, down force requirement will be lower. normal size diffuser down force rating is enough, super huge diffuser or wing is unneeded, so, the aero drag is lower lower and lower.

the result is the drag and the weight is 50% lower then dallara.

the resistance from weight is constant, but drag resistance is increace geometry. 50% cd value decrease means multiple of resistance force decrease under high speed.

as the super low resistance force, it can up to 350km/h with 300hp.

---------------------------------------

if we compare DW with curren car, it just like simple maths question--- (-)X(-) = (+)
they put all the wrong things together to make it right

correctly, DW conncept is a completely new concept, all of its blance, setting, speciality is 100% different with other current design. it is a "New Blance".

[wesley123]

so actually nothing new, only thatit can be built lighter. Further there is nothing nw about it, they just took the drag reduction way too far, the DW is just stupid, an allout todrag reduction and weight reduction, never thought about the looks or engine side. Itis imo an high performance formula, not an low-drag formula3 series...

Actually drag reduction wasnt even something on the list, it was simple;
-Wheels covered to stop punctures
-Cheap to build and cheap for customers.

That is where the Dallara is way better, be fair, the DW is the worst looking racing car ever.
The dallara was an simple choise;
-Cheapest of the list
-Good looking
-The manufacturer is known
-Allowance of different bodies makes sure there is difference between looks and also performance. So in fact DW could deesign an body for it wich makes it look lik the delta wing, then everybody is happy.

And certainly with the last mentioned point it was an obvious choise.

[Pierce89]

Why should we run on 780hp if we can do the same thing under half hourse power?

Because its 780 bhp vs 300 you wank. Even if the 300 bhp low drag DW has the same top speed, it'll have weak pansy acceleraton under 250 kph compared to the 780 bhp Indy Car(notice I didn't call the DW an Indy car)

just kidding on the wank

[Scania]

so actually nothing new, only thatit can be built lighter. Further there is nothing nw about it, they just took the drag reduction way too far, the DW is just stupid, an allout todrag reduction and weight reduction, never thought about the looks or engine side. Itis imo an high performance formula, not an low-drag formula3 series...

Actually drag reduction wasnt even something on the list, it was simple;
-Wheels covered to stop punctures
-Cheap to build and cheap for customers.

That is where the Dallara is way better, be fair, the DW is the worst looking racing car ever.
The dallara was an simple choise;
-Cheapest of the list
-Good looking
-The manufacturer is known
-Allowance of different bodies makes sure there is difference between looks and also performance. So in fact DW could deesign an body for it wich makes it look lik the delta wing, then everybody is happy.

And certainly with the last mentioned point it was an obvious choise.

why should a race car need to design for good looking, their only job is be the fastest car in the world and beat all rival.


-----Allowance of different bodies makes sure there is difference between looks and also performance. So in fact DW could deesign an body for it wich makes it look lik the delta wing, then everybody is happy.


this is a joke

Dallara only allow different body work on the same chassis, but Deltawing allow differen chassis and body work under same rule, just like F1

Dallara is just try to sugar up their fact of one make race

That is where the Dallara is way better, the fact is they will build a factory near Indianapolis

[Scania]

Why should we run on 780hp if we can do the same thing under half hourse power?

Because its 780 bhp vs 300 you wank. Even if the 300 bhp low drag DW has the same top speed, it'll have weak pansy acceleraton under 250 kph compared to the 780 bhp Indy Car(notice I didn't call the DW an Indy car)

just kidding on the wank

if low power car have weak pansy acceleraton, why Super 7 can faster then BUGATTI VEYRON on Top Gear test track?

[Pierce89]

Why should we run on 780hp if we can do the same thing under half hourse power?

Because its 780 bhp vs 300 you wank. Even if the 300 bhp low drag DW has the same top speed, it'll have weak pansy acceleraton under 250 kph compared to the 780 bhp Indy Car(notice I didn't call the DW an Indy car)

just kidding on the wank

if low power car have weak pansy acceleraton, why Super 7 can faster then BUGATTI VEYRON on Top Gear test track?

The weight disparity between those two is ridiculous. You're being unreasonable comparing that analogy of weight only when the Indy Dallara vs DW discussion is about aero moreso than weight. The new Indycar car is much lighter than the old. The DW is only 380 pounds lghter than the new Dallara(1000 vs 13800 but has less than half the downforce and drag with only 300 BHP. The ugliness and stupid front end far outweigh any of the theoretical advantages. Plus the torque vectoring rear end would make it hard to get sideways for the crowd. Plus the teams and drvers would probably hate it(I know the drivers don't like it they've said as much).

[Scania]

The weight disparity between those two is ridiculous. You're being unreasonable comparing that analogy of weight only when the Indy Dallara vs DW discussion is about aero moreso than weight. The new Indycar car is much lighter than the old. The DW is only 380 pounds lghter than the new Dallara(1000 vs 13800 but has less than half the downforce and drag with only 300 BHP. The ugliness and stupid front end far outweigh any of the theoretical advantages. Plus the torque vectoring rear end would make it hard to get sideways for the crowd. Plus the teams and drvers would probably hate it(I know the drivers don't like it they've said as much).

Narrow front track and the handling is a part of the "New Blance Chain".

>70% mass is load on rear wheel means the front parts is light like nothing, that means the front parts is easy to turn. as the front wheel is far to the CG, lever effect will help to turn the rear part.

normally, extream heavy rear will make over steer, however, narrow front track make understeer, they will cancel out by the other.

for the braking, its brake blance is also rear>front, it also make oversteer, however, as the narrow front track & front wheel, it can be cancel out, just like we riding bicycle, if you brake the rear wheel hardly and lock it under high speed, the bike will still go stright or only little bit slid sideway, but won't turn around like normal 4 wheel car.

if you watch the video about "bike drifting", we can see that the "nature stabling" won't work under turning, so, DW car need to finish the decelerate before connor, and roll through the connor. it need more space to slow down. but DW car is ligther then curren car easier to stop, so this is not a problem.
and since DW car looks like Drag car, it got very good grip under speed up, so the driver can push the gas very early when he leave the connor.

I don't know the idea about driver, but the DW project are concepted by the curren Indy car team enginners, not only Ben Bowbly, but more then 1 teams.

bag looking is really not a big problem, every new design ppl will said it is ugly, but if it is work, its ok.

If you need a DW concept supporter like me to point out the biggest disadvantage of deltawing, I'll said that the wholly new blance chain and conecpt might request the enginner and driver learn to setup and driver the car from 0. it is a big problem.

[Scania]

and I have a suggest for Deltawing.
DW car have very good accelate performance stably, it can run very high speed under low hourspower, it have good effience, what car is most suitable on it?

the answer is high performance Electric race car.

EV have a lot of torque, for normal design, it very easy to spin out with too much power in the connor, but DW car's narrow front track make full thottle speed up when it is leaving the connor possible.

EV's ultral torque make it speed up so fast, but the limt of hourse power make it only can ko the super car on the first 200m of stright. DW car make 300hp to run 350km/h possible, so a ev can get the performance of accelarate and top speed at the same time.

and the driving distance is the big problem of EV, DW make high efficence, that means the driving distance will be longer.

[rjsa]

I would like to know in wich way the Delta Wing isn't outdated? It is just an fighter jet without the wings...

Reasons why not to chose the delta wing:
-It is ugly
-It is ugly
-It is ugly
-Why take an fighter jet when you can have an normal looking car?
-An too complicated design
-My a$$ that the DW was cheaper
-The Dallara allows variation between cars
-It is ugly
-it doesnt look like an car

Seriously there is no reason to run the delta wing, it is simply incredibly ugly, it has an very unsafe look, Indy cars do not allow rockets to fire at others, it has electronics to help them aim for turns, and the indy carsraces take place on the ground, not in the air(and whatever fighter jet joke you can think up that fits here.

Give an good reason why the Delta Wing is such an great engineering piece, afterall it is just an fighter jet copy with an small underbody tunnel and an incredibly low powered engine...

Agreed, it's like a Robin Reliant race car!

I'm sure that the experts on this board could get that thing up to delta wing spec : just bolt on a revolutionary transmission system and pray

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJdrlWR-yFM[/youtube]

[Pierce89]

The weight disparity between those two is ridiculous. You're being unreasonable comparing that analogy of weight only when the Indy Dallara vs DW discussion is about aero moreso than weight. The new Indycar car is much lighter than the old. The DW is only 380 pounds lghter than the new Dallara(1000 vs 13800 but has less than half the downforce and drag with only 300 BHP. The ugliness and stupid front end far outweigh any of the theoretical advantages. Plus the torque vectoring rear end would make it hard to get sideways for the crowd. Plus the teams and drvers would probably hate it(I know the drivers don't like it they've said as much).

Narrow front track and the handling is a part of the "New Blance Chain".

>70% mass is load on rear wheel means the front parts is light like nothing, that means the front parts is easy to turn. as the front wheel is far to the CG, lever effect will help to turn the rear part.

normally, extream heavy rear will make over steer, however, narrow front track make understeer, they will cancel out by the other.

for the braking, its brake blance is also rear>front, it also make oversteer, however, as the narrow front track & front wheel, it can be cancel out, just like we riding bicycle, if you brake the rear wheel hardly and lock it under high speed, the bike will still go stright or only little bit slid sideway, but won't turn around like normal 4 wheel car.

if you watch the video about "bike drifting", we can see that the "nature stabling" won't work under turning, so, DW car need to finish the decelerate before connor, and roll through the connor. it need more space to slow down. but DW car is ligther then curren car easier to stop, so this is not a problem.
and since DW car looks like Drag car, it got very good grip under speed up, so the driver can push the gas very early when he leave the connor.

I don't know the idea about driver, but the DW project are concepted by the curren Indy car team enginners, not only Ben Bowbly, but more then 1 teams.

bag looking is really not a big problem, every new design ppl will said it is ugly, but if it is work, its ok.

If you need a DW concept supporter like me to point out the biggest disadvantage of deltawing, I'll said that the wholly new blance chain and conecpt might request the enginner and driver learn to setup and driver the car from 0. it is a big problem.

It's not a big problem for the engineers and teams to start from zero because everyone has to. The big problem is that the dynamics you talk about are all theoretical because the car hasn't been built. Even if it does work t's ugly as sin and if it works like they claim it would be too easy to drive. 300 bhp might give the same top speed but it isn't enough power to race well on BIG AMERICAN OVALs that Indy car wastes half their season on. and 300 BHP sure isn't enough for America's premier road racing. My 100 kg MX bike has 60 bhp. Indy cars need more than 650 BHP no matter what.

[wesley123]

I agree with pierce, the DW isnt an american racing car.

American racing cars handle these principals;
-Hard to drive
-Probably overweight
-Huge crashes are possible
-It is dangerous
-The cars must at least look like something, not look threatening like they are going to bomb your track.

The DW has none of these principals, so even if it looked good it still will cause boring racing.

For example the wheel to wheel racing is one of the things that makes indy cars indy cars, on an oval they take off if they hit each other enough, with such an car it wont take off(and if it does it will fly away lol), and afterall it will be way too easy to drive. It hasnt enough hp to cause wheelspin or whatsoeever, It hasnt enough downforce to go well through high speed turns. It is way too lightweight, wich makes me think what happens when it goes over bumps..

The last thing said, when going over bumps bothers me, Lets say the current indy car has on full load like 2000lbs on its wheels, this pushes it down on the track, and it is enough to counteract the upgoing force when going over an hill(the force that is symmetrical to the angle), but the DW generates far less of that pressure, like 900lbs, will that be enough to counteract that force? I am really doubting that it is.

[Scania]

It's not a big problem for the engineers and teams to start from zero because everyone has to. The big problem is that the dynamics you talk about are all theoretical because the car hasn't been built. Even if it does work t's ugly as sin and if it works like they claim it would be too easy to drive. 300 bhp might give the same top speed but it isn't enough power to race well on BIG AMERICAN OVALs that Indy car wastes half their season on. and 300 BHP sure isn't enough for America's premier road racing. My 100 kg MX bike has 60 bhp. Indy cars need more than 650 BHP no matter what.

I think that the enginner and designer will know more about how much power they need.
if the rFactor simulation is true, I can't see there are any problem about power on street.

for curren car, more then 50% of hourspower is lose in drag. that means if you have 650bhp, over 300bhp is loseded on that.

the true power used to drive the car is engine power force-(Drag force+weight+friction resistance). if the final result is the same, the power will be the same.

if the calculation of professional enginner from Deltawing is right, 650BHP is enough to make 300MPG on Indy if you put that power on Deltawing.

[Scania]

I agree with pierce, the DW isnt an american racing car.

American racing cars handle these principals;
----Hard to drive
corectly, it is not hard, but it is different with current car completely

-Huge crashes are possible
every car are possible to huge crash, look at mike conway

-It is dangerous
y?

-The cars must at least look like something, not look threatening like they are going to bomb your track.
ya, Indy Car is always look like F1, in Hong Kong, people who don't watch motorsports, they will said every open wheel car is F1, not Indy, y? because F1 is always lead indy, you think should Indy keep follow F1, or make a big bang to let hole world follow indy?


---For example the wheel to wheel racing is one of the things that makes indy cars indy cars, on an oval they take off if they hit each other enough, with such an car it wont take off(and if it does it will fly away lol), and afterall it will be way too easy to drive. It hasnt enough hp to cause wheelspin or whatsoeever, It hasnt enough downforce to go well through high speed turns. It is way too lightweight, wich makes me think what happens when it goes over bumps..
---------
make more overtake and wheel to wheel racing easily is the requirement from Indy..... every design, include Dallara, include lola, include Swift, all of them have wheel protection design

----------
The last thing said, when going over bumps bothers me, Lets say the current indy car has on full load like 2000lbs on its wheels, this pushes it down on the track, and it is enough to counteract the upgoing force when going over an hill(the force that is symmetrical to the angle), but the DW generates far less of that pressure, like 900lbs, will that be enough to counteract that force? I am really doubting that it is.
-----------
DW hae enough downforce

and for the safety, the new material make the chassis more safety by lesser material, and as the total weight is less, the impact force and energy under the same speed crash is also lesser.

[Scania]

Robin Reliant is a stupid design they put a huge iron brick top of the only front wheel, and nothing weight under the center point of front wheel. that means every things can turn it up side down.

but delta wing is little bit like F1 sidecar, nothing on the top of front wheel, no weight transfer can turn it up side down.