Mercedes GP MGP W01

[donskar]

Pierce

Like I said, Mercedes will probably underfuel their cars during FP1 and 2 to get their headline times. Then once FP3 starts the problem begins because the fuel level rises and the car behaves differently. Whereas the majority of teams arent looking at times, they are looking at set up.

Its an especially effective ploy for teams who are struggling, and relatively speaking Mercedes are struggling.

I agree that this sounds logical, but I just don't see Ross Brawn (and M Schu) panicking as you describe.

[ringo]

The W01 has officially reached its ceiling. =D>

Enter Renault Williams and force India, space up for grabs.

"I think there is one more step we want to do before the end of the year to take full advantage of the low exhaust position, that is something we will target for Singapore," explained team boss Ross Brawn.

"That was coming through already but clearly after the break our priority will be the new car."

Brawn admits that the team's performance this year has been a disappointment and that there was no point flogging a dead horse.

"There were another set of regulations this year with no refuelling, and one or two other things," Brawn said of reasons for the team's poor showing.

"We didn't perhaps hit the sweet spot with the current car, so I don't think we will throw much more resource at it.

"We understand what we need to do next year and that is where we are putting our major efforts," he added.

[wesley123]

yes, or the car doesnt suit the tires, like Brawm himself said, wich of the three would be right

I've always thought Brawn could make even a slow car have a decent balance and handle well.This year they're getting beat by cars with less DF and less efficiency because they can't balnce the car or make it handle. It seems like problems with the race crew getting the most of the car(including the driver).At the beginning of the weekend,before everyone get's dialed in, they're quick.Then over the weekend as others hone their setups the Mercs drop like a stone. So,maybe the race engineers could be the problem.

Because of the tire issue, they cannot fix that as it is just an major design flaw, and such thing cannot be 'camouflaged' like they could last year(aint that weird, they make the same mistake twice). Just start it over again with an brand new car, and just dont make the same mistake.

[Pierce89]

Pierce

Like I said, Mercedes will probably underfuel their cars during FP1 and 2 to get their headline times. Then once FP3 starts the problem begins because the fuel level rises and the car behaves differently. Whereas the majority of teams arent looking at times, they are looking at set up.

Its an especially effective ploy for teams who are struggling, and relatively speaking Mercedes are struggling.

At hungary we saw a change of tack by Mercedes. They got so fed up of "not knowing" where they went wrong on previous weekends, they had 2 different set ups on their cars. They also had a generous portion of fuel aboard during FP1 and FP2 to run back to back tests on their updates. Schumacher actually volunteered to guinea pig, big kudos to him for this. Lo and Behold Mercedes had a poor FP1 and FP2, but managed to find a set up for Rosberg who qualified 6th.

So there is a semblance of Progress, just that they are using a trial and error format during GP weekends. As of Hungary, Mercedes and Brawn have shifted focus to 2011.

Merc have no need for headline practice times. that's generally for teams looking for a sponsor. Merc have the money,so they just need the race results. So, why would they waste their only testing time on glory runs?

[Pierce89]

yes, or the car doesnt suit the tires, like Brawm himself said, wich of the three would be right

I've always thought Brawn could make even a slow car have a decent balance and handle well.This year they're getting beat by cars with less DF and less efficiency because they can't balnce the car or make it handle. It seems like problems with the race crew getting the most of the car(including the driver).At the beginning of the weekend,before everyone get's dialed in, they're quick.Then over the weekend as others hone their setups the Mercs drop like a stone. So,maybe the race engineers could be the problem.

Because of the tire issue, they cannot fix that as it is just an major design flaw, and such thing cannot be 'camouflaged' like they could last year(aint that weird, they make the same mistake twice). Just start it over again with an brand new car, and just dont make the same mistake.

I don't think it's "amajor design flaw". I think they just can't work the tires through setup as well as others. The weight dist. thing is a red herring. They are adjustable enough on weight dist scince the long wheelbase. Nico deserves a car to show his talent.

[marcush.]

we are in no position to make definitive statements.

But:
the claim that the car is further up the ranking in FP1 and FP2 could hintat :

lower fuel levels
drivers going for laptimes when others are just sorting their cars
the car and setup having more potential with lower grip levels relative to the other cars ,or its simply the lower grip levels equalise the cars enough that good driving levels will put them into artificially high rankings in the order.
the engineers are not up to the task and fail to adapt the car to the changing track conditons.

to me ,the drivers are NOT the problem in their driving skills ,Schumacher potentially a problem because of the controversy he seems to rise,and his influence on car development possibly the other.


Mercedes is surely one issue ,with bold statements the team is realistically not yet in a position to fulfill (lack of recources),jetlag from 2009 seaon ,I´´m pretty sure the board meetings when norbert and ross again were to explain when they come up with that first win must be annoying and counterproductive...
I can´t see in Stuttgart or Affalterbach the expertise to lift the outfit out of the current situation.

the statement of ross :we possibly did not find the sweet spot...

Is this the design of the car or the setup of the car..i´´m sure they have not yet figured that one out and hope for the change to Pirelli solving their issues.
It will not,unfortunatelly.

[marcush.]

could it be that all the good input came from the now defunct Team led by Mark Preston SuperAguri ? In fact it is not gone completely
http://www.formtech-composites.co.uk/
...maybe they should subcontract to them the development of their 2011 contender..

as JET correctly AND significantly stated:

If there is a fundamental flaw in the car ,it will peak earlier and at a lower level than its competitors ,simply because the one major flaw will be the limiting factor ,and not optimising the setup..

If it really is the weight distribution ....(I still doubt this) it has to be WWWAAAAYYYYoff ,not the odd 50mm ,as those 50 they had even before Montecarlo and that obviously did not help matters at all ,so in effect they would have needed a second step of at least another 50 or more millimeters to show significant change.

This is the reason why I doubt the Weightdistribution issue.A significant step of 50mm should have improved the situation considerably ,but that did not happen.I doubt their CoG is more than 150mm away from any of its competitors,simply because the main masses are where they are and most teams don´´t have a lot of Ballast available to move around.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

marcush,

Somthing as intricate and sensitive as an F1 car will be influence by small changes in weight distribution.
At most tracks this year, the car (in Rosbergs hands) has been 0.4 seconds off the Maccas and around 0.7 to 1 second off Red Bull.

Now Mclaren cant seem to use their car as well over a single lap as they can over a race. Whereas Mercedes struggle to keep achieving its headline lap time regardless of single lap, race, track temp etc.
You can see from on board footage how much work the Merc drivers had to do at Hungary. It exposed Mercedes 2 flaws, tyres and weight distribution.
Lets imagine they have this weight distribution problem for second, and to get a good qualifying slot it requires setup X. On 10kgs of fuel they will be fine and can qualify 6th.
But on 165kgs of fuel it will require setup Y which will compromise outright 1 lap performance.
This is exactly what Mercedes tried at hungary with mixed results.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2401 ... -for-race/

So they are working towards next year, by looking at all sorts of options....

[ggajic]

When your weight has increased to from the 650kgs to 750kgs at the start of a race, this problem becomes multiplied. Your tyre simulations will be wrong meaning everything you do will be a stab in the dark.

I think that 620kg is empty car mass (with driver).. and 240kg of fuel onboard it is ~860kg..

[Mandrake]

Could we maybe come back to the car and quit talking about Mercedes staying in F1 or pulling out? I guess there will be a different Thread for this......

I asked for an explanation on the new Rear Wing with detailed shots and your nice arrows etc. a couple of pages ago and it wasn't picked up once...

[marcush.]

they still have a further upgrade package in the pipeline ...to fully exploit the low
exhaust exit...maybe this will help to keep 4th place...

[747heavy]

@ madrake

I think you made a good point.
While an interesting debate, we may go back to the technical side a bit.

I´m not 100% sure, what you where asking, but I assume you talk about this:

http://f1.automoto365.com/popup/popup_n ... im2010.jpg

I hope this helps a bit:

Courtesy of f1.automoto365.com

>>>
Mercedes had a new wing aping the design of several others teams slotted rear wing. A narrow 15cm inlet is formed in the middle of the rear, flanked by bulged walls; this inlet feeds a full width slot at the back of the wing. By blowing the extra slot the wing circumvents the rules to create a wing with effectively three elements, allowing the wing to be steeper for more downforce.
<<<

[segedunum]

As for the Renault RS27 lacking 15 horspower, its a fallacy as the Mercedes powered cars altho have more grunt, are rumored to carry arround 10KG more fuel at the start of the race to make up for le lack of fuel efficency over the RS27-2010.

Sorry, but that is utter nonsense. For one, the difference between the efficiency of the Renault and Mercedes is not that great and secondly they never, ever carry that much more fuel. They simply fuel save more during the race while the horsepower is there when they feel they need it.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Thanks 747

So those two bulges arent F-duct related?
Good little news piece here from Ross and Haug.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/04082010/ ... cceed.html

Interesting how Ross has said that the lower front ride height is also a key factor along with the flexi wing for Red Bulls speed.

[747heavy]

@JET

Hi JET, looks like the Merc boys had another tough day in the office.

I think F-Duct has become a bit of an misnomer in this context.
F-Duct is the McL System, and is used to run more rear wing (DF) but be able to "switch it off" on the straights.
IMHO the Merc wing, is just there to be able to run more DF. I don´t think, that this is an driver activated system. I could be wrong, but I´m struggleing to see how, they would link this wing to the cockpit etc.

For a wing to produce downforce you need to keep the flow attached on the low pressure side. ( for an F1 car this is under/behind the wing)
High pressure above/on top of the wing - low pressure below = a pressure difference x the area of the wing gives you the amount of downforce the wing can produce. (F=PxA)

There comes a point at high Angles of Attack (AoA), where the flow on the low pressure side seperates from the wing surface, creating a turbulence = destroying the low pressure and therefore the pressure difference (downforce). The wing stalls.
This happens because the flow slows down while travelling along the wing surface(boundary layer)
To keep the flow attached to the wing surface, you will need to reenergieze the flow at one point. Speeding it up again
One way to do this is to use a slot to bleed air (with higher velocity)from the high pressure side of the wing. With this you create a multi-element wing (2/3 or 4 elements). As more elements you have as more AoA you can run.
Now, under current F1 regs, you can only have one slot. Therefore you have your mainplane and one flap. This give you a max. AoA for this wing and therefore limiting your max DF. If you could find a way to run another slot (equal to another element) you
can run more AoA = more DF.
The teams use the area 150 mm aound the centre of the mainplane (free in the regs) to collect air, and blow it out of an rear slot, creating defacto a three element wing again.
AFAIK BMW/Sauber was one of the first teams to use this concept in 2009 to create more rear DF.
A wing at higher AoA will create more DF but also more drag. So the McL F-Duct is aimed to switch the effect off on the straights, stall the wing and don´t carry the drag component on the straights.
As Hungary and Monaco do not have such long straights, it is maybe not worth/ no big benefit to be able to switch it of.

Sorry it is a bit of an long versed explaination, I hope it still makes some sense.

O.K. this is an airplane wing. The concept is the same, but you have to turn the picture upside down if you see it in relation to an F1/race car.