The last record gone

monkeyboy1976 · Post 12 Mar 2006, 12:03

Yesterday was a day of mixed feelings. The last remaining meaningful F1 record, that of number of pole positions, was equalled by Micheal Schumacher. Being a Senna fan since I can remember, I held on to this last record of his, and hoped it would be there for ever. Alas, also as a Ferrari fan since I can remember, I am happy that Schumacher used a red car to equal it. Its a shame Massa could not pip him to pole!

I wonder how long the records will stand now? A very long time I reckon. Schu's legacy will live on for at least 10 years.

Anyway. First GP of the year this morning. I just hope that Jenson can give the Ferraris a bit of a fight.

manchild · Post 12 Mar 2006, 12:30

I wonder if pole positions from 1997 when he was disqualified are taken in count? He had 4 of them in 1997 so if he was disqualified from whole season why would the poles stay?

Scuderia_Russ · Post 12 Mar 2006, 15:32

No just his points were wiped out I believe.

jgredline · Post 13 Mar 2006, 05:08

manchild wrote:I wonder if pole positions from 1997 when he was disqualified are taken in count? He had 4 of them in 1997 so if he was disqualified from whole season why would the poles stay?

That right.I had forgotten about that.

marcusdias · Post 18 Mar 2006, 03:39

I read this article comparing Senna and Shueys # of pole positions record from the F1 official website and i think someone else may find it interesting too. http://www.formula1.com/news/4112.html

DaveKillens · Post 18 Mar 2006, 04:02

I happen to agree with that article. Although I do recognize Shu's great accomplishments, and that he truly is worthy of being called a racing "great", in my mind Senna was the better man behind the wheel. It's all up to a person's personal opinion, and will most probably be one of the longest and hottest arguments between Formula One fans.
But I'm what can be called an old fan, being 55 and having spent all my adult life closely watching a lot of races. What needs to be remembered is that motor racing passes through eras, where racing styles, rules and technology make the drivers have to deal with different difficulties. Maybe Fangio may not havebeen able to be successful in this modern era, but then again Shu may not have been able to enjoy success back in the early 50's. It's all speculation, and just plain bench racing.
On a personal note, I'm a huge fan of two lesser known racers, Ronnie Peterson, and Tazio Nuvolari.
Here's a point to ponder. What if a qualifying ace such as Montoya or Trulli had enjoyed the cars Shu had? Or what would Senna have done if he had such a superior car as Shu's?

m3_lover · Post 18 Mar 2006, 04:17

Tazio Nuvolari, Isn't Audi using that name 'Nuvolari' for there next coupe or was it the name of that concept car to compete against the 6 series and SL -class merc?

manchild · Post 18 Mar 2006, 04:34

Even though I don't find comparing achievements of tragically deceased driver with live one as decent at all, one could also compare how many champions Senna had as opposition in qualifying (Lauda, Rosberg, Piquet, Prost, Mansell).

Not to mention that Senna's career lasted less than 10 years while Schuey is in his 14th full season if I'm not mistaken. Also, have in mind number of races per season that has increased for 1/3 in the previous 10 years.

kkobayash · Post 18 Mar 2006, 04:47

DaveKillens wrote:On a personal note, I'm a huge fan of two lesser known racers, Ronnie Peterson, and Tazio Nuvolari.
Here's a point to ponder. What if a qualifying ace such as Montoya or Trulli had enjoyed the cars Shu had? Or what would Senna have done if he had such a superior car as Shu's?

i also love Nuvolari. i read an article about him awhile ago, and was just amazed at what he could do with a car. In my mind, i believe him to be one of, if not the best, driver of all time.

taleed · Post 19 Mar 2006, 20:08

Michael Schumacher's Legacy will remain forever...not ten years!!!.....

Spencifer_Murphy · Post 20 Mar 2006, 01:38

Schumi staill has a record to beat...

...most pionts per GP start. The record is held by non other than Juan Manuel Fangio. Oh and this is also very impressive seeing as when fangio raced you scored less pionts for a win (8 or 9 i think).

When Schumi breaks that record I'll be seriously impressed....rather IF he breaks that record. I dont see how he can do it the way the last season has gone, and how fast Kimi & Fernando are now.

West · Post 20 Mar 2006, 08:32

Yes, Nuvolari was a Audi Concept Car. It has probably influenced the new Audi R8 road car, which there are abundant spy shots all over the net.

Michael will probably not beat Ricardo Patrese's most GP started record.

Edit: actually, give him a couple of years.

Ciro Pabón · Post 20 Mar 2006, 12:12

Spencifer_Murphy wrote:Schumi staill has a record to beat...

...most pionts per GP start.

Actually, Michael Schumacher still has a big mountain to surpass: any percentage or race based record. As of 2002, when I last downloaded them, the figures were:

Points per race
1 Juan Manuel Fangio 5.4
2 Michael Schumacher 4.7
3 Alberto Ascari 4.3
4 Alain Prost 4.0
5 Ayrton Senna 3.8

Pole percentage
1 Juan Manuel Fangio 56.9
2 Jim Clark 45.2
3 Alberto Ascari 42.4
4 Ayrton Senna 40.1
5 Stirling Moss 23.9

Win percentage
1 Juan Manuel Fangio 47.1
2 Alberto Ascari 39.4
3 Jim Clark 34.2
4 Michael Schumacher 30.3
5 Jackie Stewart 27.0

In my view, the mountains names are: Fangio, Ascari, Clark.

Of course, I agree with the people that says that Michael Schumacher achievements are big... almost as big as his ego.

(please, do not rant me a lot, this is what I perceive. What can I do? I am old and feeble minded and I have few good neurons left... oh, the wild youth)

Fangio, Ascari and Clark competed in 51, 33 and 73 GPs (despair do not, my young padawans! His victory JB will get after the 100th race, he will. I have seen it... in my dreams)

I wonder if somebody can point us to recent figures.

Anyway, I find unjust to compare the figures for people that raced 8 events each year and who had shorter careers and less points per race (and shared points) with the points the pilots of today get. Yes, I know they earned points per fastest lap...

Spencifer_Murphy · Post 20 Mar 2006, 15:57

I was going to say all of that, but I didnt know if those records were still with Fangio on top or not, so I decided not to post what I didnt know for fact hehe.

Anyways, those sort of figures are exactly why, whether I like schumi or not (I dont btw) I still have HUGE respect for his abilities, but, for me, he just isnt the greatest. Sorry Schumi fans out there.

I agree with Ciro Pabon, its really isnt fair to compare the skills of drivers from different eras with just "Most wins" or "most poles" or most anything for that matter, because a driver like Fernando or Kimi for example clearly have a longer career to come than for example Fangio ever did. That coupled with the fact there are more races per year means that they are bound to have more GP wins in their careers? But does that mean they were better drivers? Most certainly not.

RacingManiac · Post 20 Mar 2006, 19:52

People liked to say Schumacher's achievement in recent years was done in a superior car, but I think thats ignoring the fact that the car Fangio drove, in pretty much all his championship years, were also superior cars to their competitor, and he switched cars almost by yearly basis. Just think how far ahead his W196 was to the rest.....and then back then the team order consists of calling in the lesser teammate to give the car to the lead driver when his car went bunk.....

As to equalling his record, it took almost 50 years to equal Fangio's 5 championship, and at the moment the man with next most Championship # is JV and Alonso, at 1 apiece.....so I say not for at least another 50 years....