Mercedes GP 2011

[segedunum]

AMG would be a name Merc could use as an exit strategy, certainly. Renault have done a similar thing to divest themselves of their team - and that was a team that won races and championships! I think we need to wake up and smell the flowers on that one.

The current situation can't be described as anything other than a mess. The team certainly hasn't moved forwards or even maintained their position since Merc took over.

When Merc bought up AMG and walked in the front door, the founder ran out the back door with the racing parts of the business.....Its just like Ilmor selling out to MB, and then setting up a new company.

I think we all know the reason why, but I would like to here some other people say it.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

And Mercedes HPE are better now than they ever were as Illmor.
Blow ups anyone?

Mercedes AMG are producing far better more hardened cars than they ever were as stand alone tuner.

The numbers put any argument to bed immediatley. So if you holding up Mercedes aquisitions, using Ilmor and then AMG as examples of Daimler led failures is pretty poor.
Chrylser and Smart yes, the others? They're successes guys!!

Edit

Richard
Melcher sold his stake well before Aufrecht. Making it not wholly AMG anyway.
Aufrecht wanted to go specialist, and do racing only and not production(blame euro regs for that)...how is this running away. He still has his offices within sight of AMG's.
747 can elaborate further, but AMG is still operating with a large degree of autononmy.
I dont see the issue here.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The current situation can't be described as anything other than a mess.

Really?

On what basis?

4th?

If thats the case Newey should have commmited Hari kiri after Red Bulls first season of finishing 6th.
Just floating that boat out for a bit of perspective Seg.

[segedunum]

Are they? The hard work had long since been done by Ilmor in the mid-nineties and AMG in its previous guise. The fact that the founders and long-serving employees saw the writing on the wall and bailed is what is most interesting.

If MHPE (God, what a mouthful that doesn't describe what they actually do) can produce a decent four banger themselves in a couple of years that has no link to the Ilmor produced V10s that the current V8s do then that will be something.

[segedunum]

History? It goes a little like this.

• Merc buy a winning team that had a pretty large headstart with a very well regarded engine they can put in it.
• 4th.
• Currently behind Red Bull, Ferrari and Renault and struggling to tread water with the rest of the midfield. The stuation at the moment can only be described as 24 hour per day blind panic.

I believe that is commonly know as backwards.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

.... can produce a decent four banger themselves in a couple of years that has no link to the Ilmor produced V10s that the current V8s do then that will be something.

Really? the V8 is a relation of the V10?
So its a case of lopping off 2 cylinders is it Seg?

My final post today mods...feeding time is over.

[Richard]

JET - I'm not saying they are failures. I was simply correcting x that AMG works on production road cars, while the race engineering went with HWA.

The reasoning behind HWA and Ilmor is probably that Merc wanted the companies for certain capabilities, and quirky innovation did not fit their plans. That in turn can act as a sweetener to the deal.

Just imagine you are Ilmor or AMG/HWA and this corporate giant suggests buying your company, you shudder at the thought of being subject to their grey suits and tick boxes. Then the grey corporate giant says "OK, you get the cash, and we'll let you take the fun stuff with you. Have you cake and eat it!".

[Richard]

Seg - you make some good sound points, then you have to blow it by adding this....

The situation at the moment can only be described as 24 hour per day blind panic.

[FrukostScones]

That is my resonse to this ongoing quarrel here. I dont want to think of what will be going on in twenty days here.

[bot6]

Since Seg mentioned Renault here, let's make a bit of a historic parallel.

Merc's path in the last couple of seasons has been pretty close to that of Renault in the past:
The car company producing arguably the best engine on the grid decides to buy a team and race under its own name (Brawn for Merc, Benetton for Renault). And in the first season (or even first few seasons for Renault), the car is not ridiculous, but not top of the pack, as the structure of the team slowly adapts to full blown top manufacturer status.

Renault took a while but ended up with solid results on a relatively modest budget, right? Things did go a bit awry after that, sure, but the results with Alonso are still impressive...

And to add another common trait, Bob Bell, who was there for the Renault climb, is now there for the Merc attempt at the same thing.

So why say Merc is doomed to fail or wants an out? Especially when they just bought the rest of the shares from Brawn? Renault has proven it can be done. Bob Bell has seen how it was done from the inside, and can now help steer things in the right direction.

It's too soon to say results are going to be amazing, but also too soon to rule Merc out for the next few seasons.

As far as this year goes, I think they can find one second in the upgrade package if all the changes end up working well. Big "if", I know. But with progress in CFD and wind tunnel technology, aerodynamics are becoming more and more predictable without testing.

The problem is the other teams will probably find 2-3 tenths by then, which will still put Merc behind Red Bull and Ferrari, albeit with a smaller gap to fill.

[Raptor22]

yikes the hurt runs deep in some.
Mercedes bought AMG because it was there for the sale. With AMG's founders wanting to go in differnet directions merc took the opportuity to bring AMG inhouse. It was already a brand synonymous with Mercedes high performance so they had everything to loose by not buying it up.

Mercedes in the past has gone through technical doldrums. 10 years ago they ere producing some of the worst passenger car engines around. They turned that around instead of rebranding them Dacia or GWM and today they produce some of the best passenger car engines bolted to metal. They turned their technical department around using the Audi model and bang they were back in business.

Mercedes have always had a return to F1 on the cards. The opportunity Vrawn presented them was well researched. To think that it was not an intentional move and that they did not know what they were buying is less than juvenile, it moronic.
The plan to take full control of the team was there from day 1 but they made sure the Brawn management team held their shares as it incentivised them to keep their positions and re=organise the team. Once the re-structure was complete the Mercedes board gave them the options of staying on or walking away. Brawn and Fry have stayed on because they believe they have a job to do and want to finish it.

We'll see what turns up in Barcelona but my source tells me that parts being loaded that are freshly out of the moulds.

I'm not into tearing hard working people down, even if they don't succeed at first. Brawn has a great track record and we will see progress this year.

I'll say it again, neither Seg or X have any knowledge of what is going n behind the scenes at Mercedes GP. They make points that are easy to sell since they bleat it out like wounded sheep.

Perhaps we should turn the conversation to the technical incompetnace that is Williams GP Engineering. When last have they won a race?

[bot6]

Perhaps we should turn the conversation to the technical incompetnace that is Williams GP Engineering. When last have they won a race?

I've got a feeling there is or will soon be a topic dedicated to that discussion, considering how quick the mods are to draw their "split topic" gun here...

I think there should be a parallel championship ranking using points per dollar of budget. Then we could know who is Engineering Efficiency World Champion! And I doubt Red Bull or Ferrari would win...

[Dragonfly]

See, what I fail to understand about Mercedes fans, is why? They were not a team, they were a technology partner to an actual team. More precisely, they made and built engines.
................

It's very simple with me. I am not a Merc fan. In fact I don't like their road cars, especially after the 124. Like the other German manufacturers they are losing their former glory with fast steps. (BTW IMHO the Japanese are doing the same).
I am a MS fan and what I do is HOPE that they will manage to act as necessary to produce a car capable of fighting for wins if not for championship. So I quietly wait, fingers crossed, to see the last tests and the season opening.

[Ferraripilot]

wow it sure didn't take Ferrari long to copy Red Bull's exhaust. Incredibly curious what new 'thing' MB has.......

[Tamburello]

See, what I fail to understand about Mercedes fans, is why? They were not a team, they were a technology partner to an actual team. More precisely, they made and built engines.

Now that they bought the boom and bust Honda team, everyone is expecting amazing things out of them.

My question is why? I expect amazing things from Mclaren, Red Bull, and Ferrari, as they have already delivered them in the past.

What is the appeal of the Mercedes team in it's current guise?

The appeal is that Mercedes have the experience of winning championships with their close collaboration with McLaren for many years, so should surely have an inkling of how to go about winning one and the fact that they took over a team who had just won with fairly limited resource so naturally people feel that with the finances of this corporation behind it, they should be in a winning position again.