Mercedes GP 2011

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

But the reality is different Tumbarello.

We all saw how Red Bull nearly beat Brawn in 2009. Brawn failed to keep pace.
The reason was they didnt have the capacity to keep up.
For various reason already covered.

[Tamburello]

But the reality is different Tumbarello.

We all saw how Red Bull nearly beat Brawn in 2009. Brawn failed to keep pace.
The reason was they didnt have the capacity to keep up.
For various reason already covered.

Yes, but that was hoped to be alleviated by the Merc takeover, right? Therein laid the "appeal" and "hope" for the team. Then you had Schumi coming in and all that too...

[segedunum]

That Brawn team in 2009 had ample capacity to keep pace as we discovered when the account books were opened and we saw what a bumper year they had. £60 million in profit no less with a lovely dowery from Honda. They also had ample capacity to keep pace when the team was Honda, and they fell back in a way that was a carbon copy of those previous years in 2009. The latter leaves the long running 'lacking capacity and resources' theory in tatters as does their lack of progress since Merc got involved, which incidentally was supposed to solve all of those aforementioned excuses. Sorry, problems.

This has all been discussed and rehashed many times but people keep rinsing and repeating.

I'm sure in another ten years or so we might get another double diffuser loophole open up that will allow this team to get six months of glory again. When that happens I'm sure a lot of people will feel that their blind faith in this team will have been vindicated and the doubters will then be wrong. This week should be interesting at any rate. No doubt there will be some brilliant phantom update for Australia that will merit another round of feverish warm fuzzy discussion.

[segedunum]

The opportunity Vrawn presented them was well researched. To think that it was not an intentional move and that they did not know what they were buying is less than juvenile, it moronic.

If you can back that up with some evidence as to what you're arguing Raptor then that would be great for any discussion, but as usual, you can't. You've been warned about the 'They know what they're doing' argument before. It's just not an argument adults tend to use, that's all I'm saying.

EDIT:

The plan to take full control of the team was there from day 1 but they made sure the Brawn management team held their shares as it incentivised them to keep their positions and re=organise the team. Once the re-structure was complete the Mercedes board gave them the options of staying on or walking away.

Just on this point, I can't think of a more stupid thing to do to be honest. It's not something Gordon Gekko would approve of at any rate. If I were Mercedes I would have waited until the team started winning before rewarding failure, but then I suppose that's just me being picky.

[Tamburello]

^^^ You are tempting fate, my friend. ( Incidentally, I did that with FC Barcelona lately and failed badly!)

p.s. please excuse the trolling but can we move on to Williams now?

[Tamburello]

If you can back that up with some evidence as to what you're arguing Raptor then that would be great for any discussion, but as usual, you can't. You've been warned about the 'They know what they're doing' argument before. It's just not an argument adults tend to use, that's all I'm saying.

Don't be silly, appeal to authority is a favourite pastime of adults all over the world...

[segedunum]

I stand corrected. Sometimes I just forget how stupid adults can actually be......

[bot6]

That Brawn team in 2009 had ample capacity to keep pace as we discovered when the account books were opened and we saw what a bumper year they had. £60 million in profit no less with a lovely dowery from Honda. They also had ample capacity to keep pace when the team was Honda, and they fell back in a way that was a carbon copy of those previous years in 2009. The latter leaves the long running 'lacking capacity and resources' theory in tatters as does their lack of progress since Merc got involved, which incidentally was supposed to solve all of those aforementioned excuses. Sorry, problems.

This has all been discussed and rehashed many times but people keep rinsing and repeating.

I'm sure in another ten years or so we might get another double diffuser loophole open up that will allow this team to get six months of glory again. When that happens I'm sure a lot of people will feel that their blind faith in this team will have been vindicated and the doubters will then be wrong. This week should be interesting at any rate. No doubt there will be some brilliant phantom update for Australia that will merit another round of feverish warm fuzzy discussion.

Right... You do realize that between 2008 (when the BGP01 was designed) and 2009 (when it was raced and developed, and when the W01 was designed) the team lost over half of its workforce when it became a private team. This comes from the fact that when Honda sold, the team lost its only sponsor: Honda. That meant that Brawn GP had to find sponsors in half an offseason to be able to race at all in 2009. So resources on top of that for development... yeah, right...

The 60 million in the bank at the Merc takeover were mainly prize money and TV/image rights. These come in at the end of the year, after the last race. Therefore, they don't help to pay the bills DURING the year. And it is DURING the year that development is made and that the car for next year is designed.

So chronologically:
- That means the BGP01 was designed with the support from Honda, and it was a bloody good car to start with.
- Then Honda bailed, sold the team to Brawn, and Brawn tried to scrape as much money as possible from new sponsors (remember there were NO old ones) like Virgin. This only enabled him to keep under half the workforce of the previous Honda team.
- The BGP01 was developped with those tight resources. Can't expect miracles with no money and staff shortage...
- The W01 was designed with those tight resources. Again, can't expect miracles.
- Then, after the season, the money from the TV rights and the prize money came in. And it's a bit like when your salary finally hits the bank, after all the bills are paid and you were surviving close to the credit card limit: it's a bloody relief.
- Then Merc bought the team, put more money in, hired new people (although the new Merc team is nowhere as big as the Honda team was).
- Then they raced the W01, and you can say what you want about last season for Mercedes, they did keep up with development pace even though they were concentrating more on the new car. They had a shitty starting point with a W01 under big restrictions. And they turned that into the 4th fastest car on the grid. Starting point not so good. Development? Much better.
- At the same time, they designed the W02, which is the first car designed with Merc backing.

So now, we'll have a better indication of what can happen at Mercedes.

Seg, it seems you are hell bent on saying Mercedes is doomed and are a bunch of useless shits. You seem to be ready to overlook or twist facts in order to do that, and the way you ignored the timeline of events for the Brawn/Mercedes team over the last two years in the post I just quoted from you confirms that.

Why is it so important for you that they fail? Can't you just wait and see like the rest of us? The first race is not that far away...

[xpensive]

But the reality is different Tumbarello.

We all saw how Red Bull nearly beat Brawn in 2009. Brawn failed to keep pace.
The reason was they didnt have the capacity to keep up.
For various reason already covered.

No, no, no, the girl with the hips and boobs said to the geek, they fell back due to a lack of fantasy, desire, eagerness and whatever else marks xcellence.

Basta!

[segedunum]

Right... You do realize that between 2008 (when the BGP01 was designed) and 2009 (when it was raced and developed, and when the W01 was designed) the team lost over half of its workforce when it became a private team.

They got £100 million direct from Honda to keep them going as well as other income that was rather better than anyone expected. In short, there was no reason whatsoever why they should have fallen back in 2009 and we've long established that there's no evidence that large numbers of engineers were laid off and they weren't cutting their wind tunnel running to one day a week or something. We had a revealing article in the old Mercedes thread where they told us they had started on the 2010 car in July at the latest.

The myth of Brawn's 'financial situation' was destroyed by the publishing of accounts that few probably felt would be published. People keep arguing this connection between supposed financial difficulties and stunted car development (both false as it turns out) but there is no evidence for it whatsoever other than what Ross Brawn wants you to believe.

The 60 million in the bank at the Merc takeover were mainly prize money and TV/image rights. These come in at the end of the year, after the last race. Therefore, they don't help to pay the bills DURING the year.

You're completely missing the point that this didn't help them last year, or this, either. You would expect things to be looking up with financial figures like that helping you, no? They finished 2009 as the richest team on the grid.

Why is it so important for you that they fail? Can't you just wait and see like the rest of us? The first race is not that far away...

I just wonder why it's so important for a lot of people to rehash old ground and try and tell us that things are OK when it's clear that paradise doesn't look that great? That's what is really perplexing here. Oh, and like I said, when the first race does come around we'll get the same stuff rehashed all over again about how isn't their fault. One can only wonder when any of us are actually allowed to judge Mercedes.......

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I dont see it segedunum.

You fail to mention this £60 million profit was profit entirely because of the actions taken by Brawn doing the redundancies en masse(affecting his teams performance, something you continuously fail to acknowledge).
He also had to show cash in the bank if his team had any chance of competing in 2010 because the team were forwarded prize money by the FOM, something you again fail to mention. So showing a decent Profit was essential.
So had they not had the money in the bank, or showed profit, they would have folded.

Honda's 100 million blessing doesnt happen every year and nor does a years advance on FOM cash, so if you'd admit to the extenuating circumstances entirely unique to Brawn, you would do those of us seeking constructive debate a good service.

[analist01]

1. Perez Sauber C30 1:21.761

2. Massa Ferrari F150th 1:22.092 + 0.331 71

3. Webber Red Bull Racing RB 1:22.466 + 0.705 59

4. Barrichello WilliamsFW33 1:22.637 + 0.876 69

5. Schumacher Mercedes GP W02 1:22.981 + 1.220 57

Positive signs ?....i'll keep up with the update

[Ben74]

13:59 We have spoken with Norbert Haug, who says Mercedes is yet to run on low fuel.

"So far here we have not run on lighter fuel loads. The decent thing to do is to have a set-up that is like the middle of the race, and then you can roughly guess where you are weight-wise.

"It is a compromise between full and empty, and it is a base from which you can work. Then probably later you try to do a lighter fuel load to simulate qualifying. But this is later on the agenda."

AUTOSPORT LIVE

[Ferraripilot]

And he wasn't on soft tires, he was on yellows (hard)

[analist01]

60 rounds and Schumacher's fastest is 1.22:892, the quickest still Sergio Perez with an 1.21:761, less then three tenth above the time of Barichello on place 4, but he had to do eleven rounds more in comparison with Schumacher.

Are they testing now with the full upgrade ?