Aston Martin & Lola performance in LMS

[Ashley]

Why don't Aston Martin & Lola match Audi & Peugeot in the LMP1 category?
Is it a budget problem?
What do you think???

[Sebp]

Why did Toyota fail in F1? Certainly not because of their budget...

[RacingManiac]

Why did Toyota fail in F1? Certainly not because of their budget...

To a point....Red Bull is not spending Ferrari and McLaren's budget, but they are also not spending an order of magnitude less, and Toyota was not spending an order of magnitude more. Audi and Peugeot probably spend more on their hospitality center at the 24 Hours of Le Mans(one race) than most LMS teams spend an entire season running their cars...

Lola is a chassis constructor, they made cars to people who can afford them. You pit that against custom made cars like Peugeot and Audi then thats never going to work out the same way. Aston Martin right now are not ever remotely close to the size of the Audi/Peugeot, not spending nearly as much neither.

Now some engineering ingenuity still counts for something, as witness through Wirth Research's ARX cars....

[Ashley]

So, does this mean that we will always have to watch a battle between peugeot and audi?
I don't say that's its boring but it would be cool to have a 3rd and maybe 4th team which fights for the title...

[noname]

So, does this mean that we will always have to watch a battle between peugeot and audi?
I don't say that's its boring but it would be cool to have a 3rd and maybe 4th team which fights for the title...

Aston is relatively new, give them some time to grow up and challenge big boys.

On Sebring ARX-01e shown promising pace. They were struggling with money but this results should help them.

Looks like rule changes aimed at reducing domination of the diesels are doing good job. We'll see how 2012 and beyond rules will look like, so far I would say there are chances they will encourage others to enter the game.

[Pandamasque]

So far it looks like diesels have quite a lot more power (not to mention the huge torque advantage). And now that the diesels are lighter than last year, their advantage will remain quite huge. Sebring pace hardly means anything for Le Mans (remember Pirro mixing it with the big boys 2010 in his Lola-Judd of Drayson Racing?).
Unless ACO does something radical after Spa, Oreca with the old restricted 908 HDi FAP have a better chance at Le Mans than any of the petrols. The fact that AMR are very late with their LMP1 programme, and Highcroft aren't exactly flush with cash this year doesn't help things either.
So yeah, it's both resources (incl. budget) AND rules that advantage Peugeot and Audi.

[Muulka]

Is there any reason why they can't go diesel themselves? I mean, it wouldn't be very good for AM's image, but surely a competitive car with an abomination in the back is better than a slow car with a big, beautiful, real engine?

[Pandamasque]

Is there any reason why they can't go diesel themselves?

It's the same reason Aston Martin aren't interested in WRC, Dakar or truck racing. They're more likely to leave prototype racing altogether than turning up with a diesel. Not to mention that with no experience it would be extremely hard to beat Peugeot and Audi at their own game.

By the way, today's testing results have proven that 2011 diesels despite the new engine regs are very close to last year's pace, while the petrols can be barely faster than last year's LM P2. Though the the regs aimed to keep laptimes above 3:30, after just one day of testing at La Sarthe the diesels already did 3:25 and almost 338km/h and still there is some speculation about them sandbagging!
On average the more sorted out petrol cars are almost 10 sec off the pace.

[godlameroso]

The good petrol cars have almost as much downforce as the diesels, the diesels have much more torque, and less drag and that helps tremendously both in traffic and coming out of turns.

[RacingManiac]

Is there any reason why they can't go diesel themselves?

It's the same reason Aston Martin aren't interested in WRC, Dakar or truck racing. They're more likely to leave prototype racing altogether than turning up with a diesel. Not to mention that with no experience it would be extremely hard to beat Peugeot and Audi at their own game.

Not just that, racing diesel at the level of Audi or Peugeot are EXTREMELY expensive.....If you forget about Diesel, even just direct injected petrol engine is very expensive to develop. Audi pioneered that in 2001 in the R8 and to this date, no one aside from Porsche(yet another manufacturer) have even come remotely close to the engine performance or reliability of the DI V8 or the R8. That kind of monetary commitment drove manufacturers like GM out of LMP1....

I think its entirely possible even for a Petrol car to challenge the Audi/Peugeot with their diesel. But you need to be playing at the same magnitude of commitment. The half-hearted attempt like Aston will only result in failure...

[Sebp]

I think its entirely possible even for a Petrol car to challenge the Audi/Peugeot with their diesel. But you need to be playing at the same magnitude of commitment. The half-hearted attempt like Aston will only result in failure...

I wouldn't call a possible "3rd" place behind Audi and Peugeot half-hearted. If they manage a solid race and prove they're reliable that should be enough, considering a limited budget in comparison with the big two.

[RacingManiac]

If you are 3rd place, many laps down and in the end whine about how superior the Diesels had it with the rule, then you are playing half-hearted....

No petrol car have had an engine even remotely at the level of the last Audi challenger, the R8, before they went to TDI. That was what petrol car can do 10 years ago at Le Mans with a much less advanced state of tire and aero development. Until a current car with that level of powertrain mated to a competent chassis exists, you can't say the cars are not equal, since no one is spending that much money on a petrol program right now. LMP unlike F1 is not on the point of diminishing return. Money still buys you access to more advanced technology. To get to the same point of performance curve, you need to be at the same point of spending. Or you will have to be very very good.

Comparing Aston thus far with another new car, the ARX-01e, which ran days before they qualified at Sebring, finished 2nd in that race. Beating the new Peugeot and Audi and lost out to the old Peugeot. Aston's season thus far is pure and utter failure.....

[Pandamasque]

Comparing Aston thus far with another new car, the ARX-01e, which ran days before they qualified at Sebring, finished 2nd in that race. Beating the new Peugeot and Audi and lost out to the old Peugeot. Aston's season thus far is pure and utter failure.....

Like a third of that race was under yellow. Sebring was never a very good place to compare pace for Le Mans, this year especially. The longest run under green was the last portion of the race. Paul Trusswell of DSC calculated that if all cars were to start on even terms from there, the grandfathered Audi won.
Also ARX-01e is not a new car by any stretch of imagination. It's in its 5th year of development, and then the tub traces back much further. It's a very good car, but if petrol-diesel equivalence stays as is, it won't even be in the same picture with the diesels by the end of lap 1.

By the way AMR used DI engine at Le Mans since 2009 I think.

[RacingManiac]

Comparing Aston thus far with another new car, the ARX-01e, which ran days before they qualified at Sebring, finished 2nd in that race. Beating the new Peugeot and Audi and lost out to the old Peugeot. Aston's season thus far is pure and utter failure.....

Like a third of that race was under yellow. Sebring was never a very good place to compare pace for Le Mans, this year especially. The longest run under green was the last portion of the race. Paul Trusswell of DSC calculated that if all cars were to start on even terms from there, the grandfathered Audi won.
Also ARX-01e is not a new car by any stretch of imagination. It's in its 5th year of development, and then the tub traces back much further. It's a very good car, but if petrol-diesel equivalence stays as is, it won't even be in the same picture with the diesels by the end of lap 1.

By the way AMR used DI engine at Le Mans since 2009 I think.

01e IS a new car, the car has different suspension and gearbox and the car is aerodynamically quite different from the P2 car. Not to mention the engine was never ran as a P1 spec motor and at P1 weight level. The car they ran literally had days of running before being thrown into a 12 hour race at Sebring...

I may have more sympathy for what Aston's problem if it weren't for their constant complaining and politicking of rules and bold claims while not delivering at the task at hand of making a working car....

It'll be the first I've heard the V12 was a DI motor....

[Pandamasque]

It'll be the first I've heard the V12 was a DI motor....

Well it was. If I'm not mistaken it was first implemented for Le Mans 2009.