What amount of power is too dangerous for Formula 1?

[strad]

I don't care if you think it needs to be safer,,you're entitled...But by the same token, If I feel that F1 has wandered far afield from it's origins in large part because of this crazy attempt to make racing safe and that it has become far too safe,,you owe the same courtesy to me.
I repeat,,In My Opinion, F1, and racing in general, has become too safe.
And BTW..I don't want to see anyone especially my racing heroes die...But I do want them to face grave danger and even death and face it down...I know you won't understand, but it's all that much sweeter that way.
Life is sweeter that way...

[Jersey Tom]

I just want to see engineering come back to the sport.

[DaveKillens]

Life is sweeter that way...

Actually, I am of a like mind. I believe that to have a great victory you need a great opponent and require a fierce battle all the way. And yes, if the risk is high, so is the reward.

Many years ago when I was in the Air Force, I was engaged in search and rescue. And yes, a few times I was involved in actions where we were risking our lives .. to save others. Those memories I carry with great pride not only because of the achievement, but also because of the consequences if something did go wrong .. my death.

But sadly, this is where I disagree, because I do not believe the risk is worth the reward, and that every time any driver steps into a car he could die. Yes, safety is pretty darn good, but even with all that, people still die. And this flies in the face of what I consider acceptable risk, because I just don't believe that anyone should die because they made just one tiny mistake.

I respect your opinion, and even applaud the courage to speak your mind. Who knows, maybe the difference of opinion is just because I'm an old fart and sadly, have seen too many people die. But I admit I'm biased, and my perspective is warped. To the Hamilton fans, imagine how you would feel if he perished as a result of racing. Trust me, it would ruin your day. Well, it has happened to me three times, and I could not wish this kind of stuff on anyone. Gilles at Zolder, Ayrton at Imola, and Dale at Daytona.

I suggest this as reading, because it points out that even in 2001, a race had to be cancelled because the cars were going too fast.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_Firehawk_600


I'm definitely not a fan of the current engine regulations, I wish they would just throw the engine regs out the window and allow true unrestricted creativity. It would tickle my funny bone to no end to see H-16's, V-12's, I-4's, 2 strokes, heck, even radial engines on the grid. But the present economics are what they are, and we just can't return to the climate that existed in the 50's and 60's.

[Robbobnob]

if safety is the limiting factor on horsepower, the energy involved in a collision should be the considered factor.

we know that kinetic energy is proportional to the mass times the square of the speed and can relate this to the energy required to travel a speed from the speed drag relationship, therefore obtaining the engine power to travel at a particular speed. (i cant be bothered plotting the graphs)

Therefore with various simulations, anticipating the energy exchange in the crash at the certain speed levels will then give the energy dissipation per speed.

For sure there will be a set limit in which is safe for drivers to experience and then at that speed level, the correlation can be found to the kinetic energy at that speed, which then can be found using the drag blah blah blah. . .

Point being that with the obvious advancements in formula 1 construction, it makes sense to believe that if they deemed the cars safe to race back then, they would be safe today... however the major concern to me would be with the advancement in aero efficiency and performance that can be obtained ( McLarens U-pod) there will be less drag over all and therefore higher speeds.

the second issue is the if you want the cars to be less drive able, then surely the obvious choice would to be to give them a much more torquey low revving engine, producing the same horsepower, but increasing the difficulty of the engine to be driven. Again though, with the advanced engine mappings, the formula 1 teams can reduce the effect of this...

Point in case, formula 1 engineers are brilliant.

[Jersey Tom]

My own opinion.. if you want better racing, make the cars MORE driveable.

[hecti]

I just want to see engineering come back to the sport.

i dont know if thats a good or bad thing....

[King Six]

You will also soon start to see a downturn in this HP war they have between manufacturers because the focus is now on weight.

And with less weight you don´t need as much hp. Apart from other obvious gains from low weight.

Nothing has been said about the weight so I'm assuming it'll still be a minimum of 640kg when the new regulations come in. I guess less weight always helps with ballast and balance but I don't think it'll be as critical as you say. If anything the FIA will increase the minimum weight in order to discourage any "weight war" and to "save costs" and keep "performance in check"

Anyway, any amount of power is safe really. It's upto the driver to not be an idiot and keep his foot pressed on the pedal all the time. That's how I've always seen it...

[HampusA]

Nothing has been said about the weight so I'm assuming it'll still be a minimum of 640kg when the new regulations come in. I guess less weight always helps with ballast and balance but I don't think it'll be as critical as you say. If anything the FIA will increase the minimum weight in order to discourage any "weight war" and to "save costs" and keep "performance in check"

Anyway, any amount of power is safe really. It's upto the driver to not be an idiot and keep his foot pressed on the pedal all the time. That's how I've always seen it...

Yea i was just talking about manufacturers regarding their street cars and not F1 cars
Agreed, i don´t think we will see a weight decrease.

[DaveKillens]

Anyway, any amount of power is safe really. It's upto the driver to not be an idiot and keep his foot pressed on the pedal all the time. That's how I've always seen it...

I also subscribe to the theory of trusting the drivers, but the events at Texas in 2001 concerning the Firestone Firehawk 600 indicate otherwise. The driver's bodies were not up to the stress imposed by the Texas track, which didn't reveal itself immediately, but in a gradual, cumulative manner.

The first serious concerns about driver safety occurred on Friday afternoon. Dr. Steve Olvey, CART Director of Medical Affairs, would later report that two drivers felt dizzy and disoriented after running their cars at over 230 mph (370 km/h), and that they felt they couldn't control their cars. The identities of the two drivers were not disclosed, but Tony Kanaan and Alex Zanardi later claimed they experienced the symptoms. Adrian Fernandez also reported to the media he was experiencing dizziness. Olvey said in his 25 years of working in motorsports, it was a problem he had never experienced.

During qualifying, drivers were reporting 5 lateral Gs sustained for 14-18 of the 23 seconds per lap.

By late Saturday afternoon, concerns were rising about driver safety on the track. Patrick Carpentier went to the medical facility to have his wrist checked. As an aside, he mentioned that he could not walk in a straight line for at least four minutes after he got out of his car. An impromptu survey was taken during the private drivers' meeting and 21 of the 25 drivers in the starting field reported suffering disorientation and vertigo-like symptoms, including inner ear, or vision problems, after running more than 10 laps (or 20 laps). They also claimed that they had had virtually no peripheral vision and limited reaction time. This was due to sustained g-loads as high as 5.5--almost double what most persons can endure, and closer to what jet pilots usually experience in shorter time intervals.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

My own opinion.. if you want better racing, make the cars MORE driveable.

Torque? Traction?

We were there 5 years ago, werent we? High levels of downforce and stupendous grip.
Please elaborate JT. Thanks

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, at large radius curves, it's not only the power, but the grip of the tyres. You can limit either one.

It has also happened in Formula One (I'm too lazy today and the children are in the pool to look for the references), but there were reports of blackouts, and combinations of speed, lateral force and length of curves that were suspected as the cause of accidents. I don't know if you've noticed the absence of loooong curves à la Longbeach water front in most modern circuits.

Of course, blackout as the cause of an accident has never been proved. In first place because the dead never were first row figures (if I remember well), so the accidents weren't that exhaustively investigated, and in second place because dead people cannot explain what happened.

It is kind of funny that modern F1 or oval racing force drivers to do 100 push-up with their necks every morning (lifting 10 kilos or something like that). I never thought of Graham Hill doing something similar, so, yes, I think there is a limit. It shows itself gradually, as Dave insinuates, but it is there.

If it is not a limit of body strength, it should be a limit of taste. No art forces its followers to do something extremely difficult all the time, just to show the gallery how good they are at it. Well, perhaps tiptoeing in ballet has been exaggerated methodically, but we all know where ballet has ended: in the realm of specialized spectators.

I conclude that if we, the people were in charge of deciding power and grip, we should see small monsters driving the cars (if we aren't seeing them right now) and fire proof suits would be exchanged by fire proof pressure suits, like the ones used by airplane fighters.

Those who doubt my words, just take a look at the neck of the last batch of WDCs (perhaps Vettel not that much, but Vettel has something else). It's kind of grotesque, specially if you contemplate how hard must be to fit a proper shirt and tie around it.

It's like the boobs with silicone implants in some soft porn magazines: I repeat, if it's not a limit of the body, then this should be limited by public taste. Actually, the public should be educated by experimenting by themselves how hard is to take a curve of these (or how boring are big tits after a while, specially after some years).

I can tell you that even at relatively low speeds, low radius curves are a pain in the neck, literally, specially for tall, thin guys like the one that signs this post. I breath heavily on purpose during races to increase a bit the level of oxygen (me paranoid? why do you say that?) and before the start of a race I breath quickly, like I do when I'm going to swim underwater through a pool. If it doesn't help my body, it helps to deal with my paranoia.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Would it not be better, if F1 would show better how dangerous F1 was without risking safety?

People love seeing crashes, right or wrong. But if they could see the exertion a driver faced every lap, maybe they would appreciate it more.
The sort of of exertion you hold your breath for and exhale once the corner has been negotiated.

[andrew]

People love seeing crashes...

When they have lost touch of reality and have watched crap like Fast and Furious far too many times then sure people like to see crashes.

A driver coming a cropper in a battle and ending up taking an off track excursion or having a small prang maybe throws a bit of a curve ball in the race but actual crashes (like that of Perez's) are not waht I or anyone I know want to see more off.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Andrew, it pre dates fast and furious.

This is not modern phenomena

[andrew]

JET - I used fast and furious as an example where people appear unsusceptable to injury or even death and the cars are impossible to damage. Sad but true there are some morons out there that fall for that sort of crap.

You are right that people's love of crashes is nothing new. However what is newer is what is deemed entertainment, where the line between acceptable and unacceptable is drawn.

Speaking (or wrtting for myself), a small prang which causes no one any harm to anyone and is written of as "just one of those things" is ok, it's part of racing. However, I draw the line at seeing a massive smash where the driver remains in the car and ends up being lifted out and carted of in an ambulance, or worse. That is something I don't like seeing and don't want to see.