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but the size are different, DW got less power but less contact areaJersey Tom wrote:And how much more power to the rear wheels does the FW08 have compared to the DW?
1 of the problem for them I think is Deltawing is Deltawing, not Formula or Prototypecossie wrote:The big problem for me is that originally Bowlby tired to sell it as an open wheel chassis for the IRL, looking at the Dallarra they selected maybe they should have selected the Delta Wang
he had built & ran lots of chimpions cardonskar wrote:I do NOT have the tech background to comment on the DW, but all this negativity does lead me to ask: does Ben Bowlby have a history of crackpot or failed designs? I thought he was competent?
actually now, the lmp1's run under 3:30 with 550 hp. They could take 150 kilos out of the Audi or Peugot tomorrow if the ACO allowed it. The DW is no more efficient than a normal car could be with that low of a weight limit, The DW is only extra efficient because it doesn't have to follow rules. With no rules, Audi or Peugot could go alot faster than 3:45 on 300 HP.machin wrote:I would argue that the Deltawing isn't "wrong" as such....
I believe it will lap Le mans in 3:45 (their target), (assuming they meet their claims...); I believe they can do that lap time with just 300bhp whereas the current regulations mean you need near 600bhp to do it, so from that point of view, the ACO have made the right decision from the available options if they want to prove that equal lap time can be achieved whilst burning a lot less fuel.
My problem with its selection is that this sort of performance is a result of the light weight and ground effects, and has nothing to do with the Delta shape... infact the performance is inspite of the Delta shape, because the low weight and ground effects are such an advantage it can overcome the disadvantages of the delta shape... and that's my problem with it... people can't see light weight, and they can't see ground effects, but they can see the Delta shape, and they will hear that it only has 300bhp, so they'll think the delta shape is some "miracle" allowing near equal performance from half the power....
It was Autogyro, a couple of pages back, who hit the nail on the head I think... the Deltawing team have designed a car that looks so completely different from its rivals that you can't help but sit up and notice it... its a brilliant marketing ploy.
Apple do the same thing with their products; technically they don't make the best products, but they do make their products look "different" or "cool" (white with curved edges), and it got them noticed, and now they have a huge market share, and in fact a lot of other companies now make "White with rounded edge" products... and that's what I fear here.....
+1 I think he inly used that shape for publicity. I absolutely don't believe it's layout is any better than a normal car allowed ground effects. I don't believe there's anything revolutionary in it. A conventional car built to the same weight,power, and level of downforce would beat it I believe. But i will say the debate on the rearward brake bias is misinformed. The rearward bias will actually increase stability because the downforce, weight, and tire distributions are so rearward biased that there's more grip back there even under the forward weight transfer of braking. With the huge rearward grip bias a slightly rearward break bias produces a stabilizing force moment. The fronts will still lock first because they have so little grip. However, the guy who said that it still creates a stabilizing force even with the rears locked up is wrong. With the rears locked up, the DW will spin like any car.machin wrote:pierce89; exactly; its the relaxing of the rules with allowance of light weight and ground effects which gives the Deltawing its performance... Not the Deltashape... That shape is a hindrance...
Even if anyone's sceptical of the maths, As someone said above; we have 100 years of Darwinism to show the Delta shape isn't an advantage...
Ben Bowlby has some winning designs in Champ cars, but his cars have never been particularly special. We're not taliking Newey here. As for Highcroft, as the saying goes:"show me the money"Scania wrote:he had built & ran lots of chimpions cardonskar wrote:I do NOT have the tech background to comment on the DW, but all this negativity does lead me to ask: does Ben Bowlby have a history of crackpot or failed designs? I thought he was competent?
that's the point I said is 1 authority people or team would be make some wrong thing, but is it possible to see a champion engineer, chip ganassi racing(top class team in NASCAR, Indy Car & Gran-Am), Highcroft Racing(2 times ALMS LMP2 Champion), and ACO technical group make the same wrong @ the same time?
ACO have another choice, if they want a Hi-technical image, they can take GreenGT, if they want business icon, 918RSR should be better
That's true, or put another way to make it applicable to any car:- "if the brake bias is set slightly further forward than the grip distribution then the car will be inherinantly stable"With the huge rearward grip bias a slightly rearward break bias produces a stabilizing force moment
how about the drag of normal car?machin wrote:I would argue that the Deltawing isn't "wrong" as such....
I believe it will lap Le mans in 3:45 (their target), (assuming they meet their claims...); I believe they can do that lap time with just 300bhp whereas the current regulations mean you need near 600bhp to do it, so from that point of view, the ACO have made the right decision from the available options if they want to prove that equal lap time can be achieved whilst burning a lot less fuel.
My problem with its selection is that this sort of performance is a result of the light weight and ground effects, and has nothing to do with the Delta shape... infact the performance is inspite of the Delta shape, because the low weight and ground effects are such an advantage it can overcome the disadvantages of the delta shape... and that's my problem with it... people can't see light weight, and they can't see ground effects, but they can see the Delta shape, and they will hear that it only has 300bhp, so they'll think the delta shape is some "miracle" allowing near equal performance from half the power....
It was Autogyro, a couple of pages back, who hit the nail on the head I think... the Deltawing team have designed a car that looks so completely different from its rivals that you can't help but sit up and notice it... its a brilliant marketing ploy.
Apple do the same thing with their products; technically they don't make the best products, but they do make their products look "different" or "cool" (white with curved edges), and it got them noticed, and now they have a huge market share, and in fact a lot of other companies now make "White with rounded edge" products... and that's what I fear here.....
