German GP 2011 - Nürburgring

[Shrieker]

I think Vettel is being treated unfairly. People are saying he can't overtake. Maybe his overaking prowess isn't top notch ok, but to say "he can't overtake" is a gross exaggeration. Do remember that the RB7 is designed to do the fastest lap around a circuit a lot more so than other cars, and this brings compromises. Their kers definitely isn't on a par with the Macca and Ferrari, plus their 7th gear is always (most of the time?) geared short to yield better accelaration rather than top speed. These are good traits to have (correct me if I'm wrong) for setting the fastest quali lap and leading the race from the front, but most certainly a disadvantage when it comes to both attacking for on track position or defending. These traits I think hamper both Vettel and Webber when they have to tussle for position.

If you say "there were no cars around Vettel and he made an error on his own by putting his rear wheel on the grass and spinning thus ruining his race, much like he did in Canada by putting his rear wheel in the wrong place" then i'd say it's fair criticism.

[raymondu999]

I quite agree with you there. If you remember for example Silverstone last year he was in the slipstream and could barely catch up the guy in front. Vettel also doesn't seem to have much problem overtaking in a slow corner situation (not outbraking) For example in Spa last year he put in a beautiful cutback on Kubica in La Source (Kubica defended into La Source, and Vettel cut back underneath him)

[Pierce89]

I won't say Vettel can't pass, I will however, say he cannot race through the field. The RB7 is not designed to run only at the front any more than any car in F1. They all just get the best compromise between raw downforce and efficiency that their designers and aero department can give them. They do judge 7th gear with quali in mind, because they have unlimited DRS but that's not hurting their ability
to overtake because unlimited DRS use pushes you to taller gear not lower.

[raymondu999]

Actually you hear Red Bull hitting the limiter quite a bit in quali. I don't think it's set up with a quali 7th gear, but a race 7th gear. Also, in a form of motorsport where most of the passing happens in the straights and in the slow corners (usually) right after them, they have very bad top speed figures.

[Ray]

I think Vettel is being treated unfairly. People are saying he can't overtake. Maybe his overaking prowess isn't top notch ok, but to say "he can't overtake" is a gross exaggeration. Do remember that the RB7 is designed to do the fastest lap around a circuit a lot more so than other cars, and this brings compromises. Their kers definitely isn't on a par with the Macca and Ferrari, plus their 7th gear is always (most of the time?) geared short to yield better accelaration rather than top speed. These are good traits to have (correct me if I'm wrong) for setting the fastest quali lap and leading the race from the front, but most certainly a disadvantage when it comes to both attacking for on track position or defending. These traits I think hamper both Vettel and Webber when they have to tussle for position.

That's funny. The RB7 raced through the field just fine in Webbers hands in China. Dead last (at one point) to within 7 odd seconds of the leader in fact. The RB7 also went toe to toe with the McLaren of Lewis Hamilton and the Ferrari of Fernando Alonso just fine in Webbers hands in Germany today (on multiple occasions in fact). Vettel is a great kid, a very funny guy, but he hasn't shown that he has the ability to race to the front consistently when things don't go to plan. Say what you will about Mark compared to Vettel, but Mark knows and can race through a field for a win, Vettel has yet to prove he can race through the field much less win in his short career. I'm not bashing him because I like him alot, but he's no Alonso or Hamilton. Not by a very very long way.

[Ray]

So how was Webber supposed to pass in a gap that doesn't exist? Should Hamilton not defend the line? He gave Webber more than enough space to yield.

I stand corrected.

[RB7ate9]

I think Vettel is being treated unfairly. People are saying he can't overtake. Maybe his overaking prowess isn't top notch ok, but to say "he can't overtake" is a gross exaggeration. Do remember that the RB7 is designed to do the fastest lap around a circuit a lot more so than other cars, and this brings compromises. Their kers definitely isn't on a par with the Macca and Ferrari, plus their 7th gear is always (most of the time?) geared short to yield better accelaration rather than top speed. These are good traits to have (correct me if I'm wrong) for setting the fastest quali lap and leading the race from the front, but most certainly a disadvantage when it comes to both attacking for on track position or defending. These traits I think hamper both Vettel and Webber when they have to tussle for position.

That's funny. The RB7 raced through the field just fine in Webbers hands in China. Dead last (at one point) to within 7 odd seconds of the leader in fact. The RB7 also went toe to toe with the McLaren of Lewis Hamilton and the Ferrari of Fernando Alonso just fine in Webbers hands in Germany today (on multiple occasions in fact). Vettel is a great kid, a very funny guy, but he hasn't shown that he has the ability to race to the front consistently when things don't go to plan. Say what you will about Mark compared to Vettel, but Mark knows and can race through a field for a win, Vettel has yet to prove he can race through the field much less win in his short career. I'm not bashing him because I like him alot, but he's no Alonso or Hamilton. Not by a very very long way.

I concur. I was just ready to mention China 'til I read your post. The RB7 may be set up for qualifying fast laps, but there is capability for overtaking and defending position. Vettel showed that ahead of Hamilton in Spain and Mark overtook Alonso in Turkey. For Vettel, he cannot deny that he slipped up on the track. For Webber, he cannot deny that he made some slip-ups, strategy mistakes, and didn't have the pace. For RBR, they cannot deny they have to work twice as hard to maintain their pace from the first half of this season.

[Mandrake]

I think Vettel is being treated unfairly. People are saying he can't overtake. Maybe his overaking prowess isn't top notch ok, but to say "he can't overtake" is a gross exaggeration. Do remember that the RB7 is designed to do the fastest lap around a circuit a lot more so than other cars, and this brings compromises. Their kers definitely isn't on a par with the Macca and Ferrari, plus their 7th gear is always (most of the time?) geared short to yield better accelaration rather than top speed. These are good traits to have (correct me if I'm wrong) for setting the fastest quali lap and leading the race from the front, but most certainly a disadvantage when it comes to both attacking for on track position or defending. These traits I think hamper both Vettel and Webber when they have to tussle for position.

If you say "there were no cars around Vettel and he made an error on his own by putting his rear wheel on the grass and spinning thus ruining his race, much like he did in Canada by putting his rear wheel in the wrong place" then i'd say it's fair criticism.

I'm surprised to see that post from you

I agree with you in thinking that the RedBull is not the best car to overtake with when it's only a couple of tenths quicker per lap, if at all. In China, where Webber blasted through the field, the RB was a lot more competitive, if not unreachable.

In Germany we saw Vettel with open DRS behind Massa only marginally faster, that way you cannot pass unless the guy in front puts a foot wrong. Vettel had several very good opportunities coming out of the Mercedes Arena, but that's a place where MAssa could easily block him going into the next left hander.

On that note, what a poor pace from Massa.....the gap between him and Alonso is just massive...And having Vettel all over him it didn't look like he was going any quicker than him.

Alonso vs Lewis after the pitstop: I think Alonso was way too gentle with Hamilton. Hamilton pushed Webber so wide he had to back off, Alonso could and should have done the same to hold P1....this is where he lost the race!

[CHT]

Alonso vs Lewis after the pitstop: I think Alonso was way too gentle with Hamilton. Hamilton pushed Webber so wide he had to back off, Alonso could and should have done the same to hold P1....this is where he lost the race!

Alonso needs Lewis to finish ahead of the 2 Redbulls to close the gap on the championship race. The last thing he want is to have him and lewis suffer a double DNFs.

[myurr]

I know its not simple but thats how theyve been thinking since 2009...i dont think they will change their minds now...

They better hope that they retain their one lap advantage then, as if they end up having to scrap with other cars for the win (or heaven forbid one or other of the cars qualifies out of place) then they'll end up losing out again. Could we see Red Bull with a Brawn like struggle in the second half of the year? Probably not but it would be good to see their drivers having to actually fight for it, especially the champion elect.

For me I'm finding it really interesting to watch Vettel now he's unable to just run unchallenged at the front. In Valencia he had track position and a slender car advantage, but in Silverstone he was off colour and was never really in contention (with Webber having to be ordered not to overtake), and in this race he was really off the pace and lucky to get fourth.

What we're witnessing is that when he has a weekend where the car isn't dominant, he's not rising to the pressure and seems unable to fight. Is he just a slightly quicker version of Button, where they need the perfect car to win? He certainly doesn't appear to be able to win races he shouldn't be able to, like Hamilton and Alonso have both demonstrated.

[Mandrake]

For me I'm finding it really interesting to watch Vettel now he's unable to just run unchallenged at the front. In Valencia he had track position and a slender car advantage, but in Silverstone he was off colour and was never really in contention (with Webber having to be ordered not to overtake), and in this race he was really off the pace and lucky to get fourth.

What we're witnessing is that when he has a weekend where the car isn't dominant, he's not rising to the pressure and seems unable to fight. Is he just a slightly quicker version of Button, where they need the perfect car to win? He certainly doesn't appear to be able to win races he shouldn't be able to, like Hamilton and Alonso have both demonstrated.

In danger of running too much offtopic: In Silverstone the Ferrari was not beatable, fact! Even with a perfect pit stop the Ferrari went berzerk in S2.

In Germany we saw Webber unable to overtake the McLaren OR the Ferrari. He went past them in the pits. Even in the clean air he could not open up a gap sufficient enough. Vettel never seemed happy with his car but qualified 3rd, which is still good isn't it? After the start he was "blocked" by webber who had once again a very poor start and the 2 Ferraris that Sandwitched him (I was a bit sorry for Massa who had a blistering start but couldn't convert it into position gains)

After that Vettel had brake problems (could be seen by twitchy rear, locking of fronts) the tires he flatspotted heavily due to his own mistake and was locked behind Massa due to lack of topspeed (5kph advantage with open DRS is ridiculous). To say he showed a lack of motivation or skill is just pure hatred. You could see he tried and was oftenly next to Massa but not enough to make it stick. And unlike others claim here, he never crashed into Massa at any time (reference to Vettel/Button SPA incident)

I find it worrying that the RB7, now that it is challenged by the competition is getting more fragile again. 2 races in succession it started to wear down tires although not being pushed hard (Silverstone S. Vettel / Webber Germany) and the brake problems (Vettel) in cold ambient temps are no good sign either.

[raymondu999]

I think you need to also take in the fact that this weekend many things compounded for Vettel. He had a brake problem for a bit of the race, he has never been good in Nurby, and he's never had an *awesome* result in front of his home crowd. I think races such as Suzuka/Abu Dhabi will be more telling as they're tracks here Vettel has always excelled.

I think Red Bull have actually undone themselves this year. They have supreme downforce, yes, and that allows them to go super quick in the fast corners especially. But it seems that with these new Pirellis, this is just stretching them under load and chewing them up, overloading the Pirellis. Hence why their race pace in tracks such as Silverstone & Spain, ironically, have been lackluster

[Lorenzo_Bandini]

I think Vettel is being treated unfairly. People are saying he can't overtake. Maybe his overaking prowess isn't top notch ok, but to say "he can't overtake" is a gross exaggeration. Do remember that the RB7 is designed to do the fastest lap around a circuit a lot more so than other cars, and this brings compromises. Their kers definitely isn't on a par with the Macca and Ferrari, plus their 7th gear is always (most of the time?) geared short to yield better accelaration rather than top speed. These are good traits to have (correct me if I'm wrong) for setting the fastest quali lap and leading the race from the front, but most certainly a disadvantage when it comes to both attacking for on track position or defending. These traits I think hamper both Vettel and Webber when they have to tussle for position.

If you say "there were no cars around Vettel and he made an error on his own by putting his rear wheel on the grass and spinning thus ruining his race, much like he did in Canada by putting his rear wheel in the wrong place" then i'd say it's fair criticism.

I'm surprised to see that post from you

I agree with you in thinking that the RedBull is not the best car to overtake with when it's only a couple of tenths quicker per lap, if at all. In China, where Webber blasted through the field, the RB was a lot more competitive, if not unreachable.

In Germany we saw Vettel with open DRS behind Massa only marginally faster, that way you cannot pass unless the guy in front puts a foot wrong. Vettel had several very good opportunities coming out of the Mercedes Arena, but that's a place where MAssa could easily block him going into the next left hander.

On that note, what a poor pace from Massa.....the gap between him and Alonso is just massive...And having Vettel all over him it didn't look like he was going any quicker than him.

Alonso vs Lewis after the pitstop: I think Alonso was way too gentle with Hamilton. Hamilton pushed Webber so wide he had to back off, Alonso could and should have done the same to hold P1....this is where he lost the race!

Are you joking ?

The gap was big because Massa was stuck behind Rosberg at the start of the race.

During the first stint, it's impossible to pass Mercedes car, this car is too fast on straight line. ( Schumacher will be third at Monza mark my words )

If Rosberg is in front of you at the start, your race is over.

[Mandrake]

I believe that at max half of the gap is attributeable to Rosberg

[HampusA]

Vettel is a damn quick driver. But he´s not a fighter like Alonso or Hamilton.
He will never be that aswell.