McLaren with Honda engines in 2014

[kalinka]

"Auto motor und sport said McLaren were looking around for a new engine partner and cited team sources saying Honda could be a possible candidate when the sport's new V6 turbo engine is introduced in 2014.

There was no immediate comment from McLaren.

The magazine said a senior Honda manager in Suzuka had said everything was technically ready for a Formula One comeback as an engine provider but management had yet to approve anything."

Source :
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/11/1 ... RZ20111118

I know it's a bit early, but this source was the first sign that maybe something's really happening in the background.
Do you think this deal is possible ?
What benefits could it bring to both parties ?
What are the concerns on McLaren's side ?
I'm not sure the time is enough to develop a new F1 engine until 2014...if it's not already in some design phase...

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

All will depend on Honda management.

I'm a huge fan of Honda's, but you only need to look at their current production car line up to see they have gone ultra conservative. They were stung in 2008/9 and ditched all their sporting models.
They even canned the NSX and S2000 replacements which in hindsight was a big error as they had no "halo" products.

The return with McLaren I reckon is 66% probable. They need to return Honda to it's sporting roots, and there is now official confirmation that the NSX and S2000 are set to return.
This would dovetail nicely with an F1 programme to get Honda's sporting image back in shape.

As for Honda's capabililty to produce a winning engine, well I reckon a Honda powered McLaren would scare the bejesus out of everyone.

Fingers crossed this happens.

[piast9]

For sure, the McLaren - Honda name would sound cool.

[ringo]

mclaren bmw has a nice ring to it too.

[WhiteBlue]

To me it looks less probable considering that Honda is still run by the same guy who took them out of F1 in 2009. On top VW is just demonstrating how to sucessfully grow the business to #1 without F1. F1 is still too expensive and not enough focussed on free competition for engine makers to make it worthwhile for the big automotive players. This could be a red herring by Ron Dennis to beat down the price for his Merc 2014 power trains.

[wunderkind]

To me it looks less probable considering that Honda is still run by the same guy who took them out of F1 in 2009. On top VW is just demonstrating how to sucessfully grow the business to #1 without F1. F1 is still too expensive and not enough focussed on free competition for engine makers to make it worthwhile for the big automotive players. This could be a red herring by Ron Dennis to beat down the price for his Merc 2014 power trains.

Yes, I don't think Honda is going to come back to F1 anytime soon. The Honda F1 engine guys were reassigned to designing battery and hybrid drivetrains for production cars after the company's exit from F1. One has to ask, what does Honda gain from being in F1? Nothing.

ALL Japanese car companies are on a crash diet because of the high yen and the effects from the Tsunami and the recent floods in Thailand. Also, demand for automobiles tend to trend with broader economic activites and availability of credit. Neither of which look too promising right now.

What is the chance of Honda building a race-winning engine right out of the blocks? Pretty close to zero I would say as it usually takes at least 3 years for a engine to start winning regularly. Honda really would have to start from zero having been away from F1 for so long. It would be a very very dicey move for McLaren given their desperate need to win a Championship, switching to a new engine supplier means they might not be a Championship contender until 2016 at the earliest. By then, a winless McLaren would probably be out of options on securing top-line drivers and sponsors.

Also, McLaren would most probably be asking for cash contribution on top of the supply of engines from any possible engine supplier. I just cannot see anyone who is willing to do such a deal. Not even VAG (VW-Audi Group).

I think McLaren has a deal with Mercedes Benz until 2015, no?

Unless Mercedes Benz is kicking McLaren out of the bed, I'd stay put if I were Whitmarsh.

[scuderiafan]

All will depend on Honda management.

I'm a huge fan of Honda's, but you only need to look at their current production car line up to see they have gone ultra conservative. They were stung in 2008/9 and ditched all their sporting models.
They even canned the NSX and S2000 replacements which in hindsight was a big error as they had no "halo" products.

The return with McLaren I reckon is 66% probable. They need to return Honda to it's sporting roots, and there is now official confirmation that the NSX and S2000 are set to return.
This would dovetail nicely with an F1 programme to get Honda's sporting image back in shape.

As for Honda's capabililty to produce a winning engine, well I reckon a Honda powered McLaren would scare the bejesus out of everyone.

Fingers crossed this happens.

I can tell you that in the near future, Honda will have a halo vehicle. I live in Ohio (where the Honda testing facility is) and I know some people who work in the R&D dept. there. They've been testing DB9's, ZR1's, GT-R's and such recently, and they seem to be preparing for a sports/supercar. Off-topic, but I think that Honda could return to Formula One, and have a representative halo vehicle for the return.

[ESPImperium]

Personally, i thin k there could be som e truth behing the smoke.

Mercedes management in Stugart have been wanting to offload McLaren as soon as posible, but they cannot off load till McLaren find another engine partner this side of and including 2015 under the Due Responsability heading of the contract.

If McLaren-Honda was a goer, id expect the Honda F1 guys to come back in 2013, McLaren would use the RA809E power plant and have 2013 as the last year of V8 power, then the Honda guys would be embedded in the team.

However, there would be a problem, Honda would need to spend a bit of Capital to get a new engine plant in the UK as their old one is now Mercedes GP. and this aint gonna be cheap, a decent plant would cost arround €20m, and the new V6 would cost arround €15m-€20m as well. Honda would have to weigh up their exposure to risk there.

However, it would make sence as they would then re-attach ties with the last driver to win with Japaneese power, Jenson Button, who is massive in Japan. And if contract talks go well with Lewis Hamilton next year, it would mean that they would also have access to Hamilton who would be marketing gold to the Honda brand.

I think it would be a risk worth taking for Honda, who have unfinished buisness in F1, one wonders what the RA109E would have done with a Honda RA809E and Honda KERS and not a Mercedes FO108W power plant.

I think that the 3 other pull out teams from 2008/2009 in F1 are now looking at Renault with envy, they pulled out and still are winning races as they sold their team and kept engine supply in the sport. I think that if Honda had sold the team and kept supplying engines in F1 they would have bneen much better off, Toyota could still have had supply at one team and looking at BMW, one only wonders what their P86/9 plant would have done in non-refueling F1.

I think BMW, Honda and Toyota now realise that pulling out of F1 was the right thing to do then, but also the wrong thing for the long term as they now lack a sporting exposure at the highest level.

If Honda were to return, id expect them to have a works team in McLaren and a customer team in Marussia to make the books ballance, as Renault are looking at making the books ballance with only supply of 3 teams maximum in 2014 for the new turbo V6 era. Id also like to think that more engine suppliers can only be good for the sport the same way 6 World Drivers cahampions on the grid can be good for the sport.

[WhiteBlue]

1.) Merc are not keen to offload McLaren. They need customers and McLaren is a pretty prestigious one. So no reason not to stick with them.

2.) Honda do not need to build engines in the UK. Some of the best F1 engines in history were build outside, in Japan, Germany and Italy.

3.) Money and particularly cash talks much louder than the likes of Button and Hamilton for a Japanese corporation. I rather doubt that they would see it as an opportunity to sponsor those guys but as an opportunity to sink huge amounts of cash. Honda needs ton of cash to follow their program of building road car manufacturing plants in Europe, America and Asia.

[dumrick]

For sure, the McLaren - Honda name would sound cool.

There have been McLaren-Hondas from 1988 to 1991, and some pretty successful ones...

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

WhiteBlue

Mercedes will also not really be too keen on supplying an on road competitor. It's a double edged sword, but I guess so long as the Mercedes name is pronounced on the engine covers Stuttgart won't be too fussed.

And should Honda return, they can still supply their engines from Japan, no?

As for money, Honda already have the capabilities in-house. It's not going to be a "from scratch" operation. Remember when Honda withdrew from f1 they diverted their Japanese operations to other activities within their vast R&D programme.

[gibells]

It's an interesting discussion. Added to the fact that with the so called restricted resources there are many motorsport engine manufacturing facilities standing idly by not making engines. That goes for everyone. So how feasible is it for say the motogp engine designers to design a plant for F1?

Honda have not forgotten how to make power. Their V4 800cc, and now 1000cc is well clear as the most powerful on the grid and they're down to making 6 engines per rider there. So a total of 24 engines.

I should think it's entirely feasible, but I'm not in the know about cross-disciplines and inter-meshing one to the other.

[FW17]

Honda Performance Development (HPD) a subsidiary of American Honda Motor Co will be making 2.2L V6 engines for 2012 IRL series.

Honda is active in this series as the costs should be lot lesser than F1 engine programme.

F1 programme in the current V8 configuration is costing Renault around $120 million in spite of the engine development fee.

With current market and costs involved, do not see Honda returning unless the markets turn around to their favor.

[scuderiafan]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96409

Looks like Macca will be staying with Merc engines.

[feynman]

Hmmmm, up-until the near perfect dictionary-definition of a non-denial denial from Jonathan Neale, I was uncommitted, now it looks pretty certain something is going-on and a McLaren Honda for 2014 now looks like a viable proposition.

“That’s all wide of the mark" Disputes the precision not the veracity.

“We are wedded to, very happy with and enjoying out partnership with Mercedes-Benz."
Yes a statement of fact, McLaren currently have a contract with Mercedes, no-one queried that.

"We’re not quite sure how or where that broke from, in truth"
i.e. we have checked phone-logs and email servers but can't find out where the leak came from. Again a response to a question not asked.

"No, I can scotch the rumour and say that we are entirely focused on our Mercedes-Benz relationship".
The word scotch means to cut or wound (but not kill), it is not actually the same as deny. If I was negotiating a new commercially sensitive contract, I too would like to see rumours reduced.

If he said, clearly and without equivocation, "We will have Mercedes engine power in 2014", the story is over, and this thread closes ... but he didn't, and he tap-danced around every other possible angle but the actual issue.

So, of course we can't say a deal has been made, but after reading that, I'd have to say there must be something bubbling on the back-burner.